Context Podcast Digital Collection

Doug Exton: This program is funded through a more Perfect Union Initiative of the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Nisei are the second generation those born in the US to Issei, and thus are citizens through birthright. Sansei are the third generation, and children of Nisei, Yonsei are the fourth generation and children of Sansei and Gosei are the fifth generation and children of Yonsei. I am deeply, deeply grateful and honored to have with us today a group of Minidoka survivors and descendants.

Mary Abo is a Nisei Minidoka survivor who was forcibly removed from her home in Alaska. She and her family returned to Alaska after Minidoka. Karen Hirai Olen is a Sansei Minidoka survivor who was born at Minidoka. Her family was living in Washington state prior to forced removal, and her family settled in Twin Falls, Idaho after incarceration. Paul Tomita is a Sansei Minidoka survivor from Washington State whose family left Minidoka.

first living in Washington, D.C. and eventually they returned to Seattle. Wendy Tokuda is a Sansei Minidoka descendant. Her family was forcibly removed from Seattle, Washington and returned to Seattle after Minidoka. And we have Stephen Kitajo, a young, younger Minidoka descendant whose family was living in Seattle before incarceration and returned after. Thank you all for joining us today.

Paul, would you like to start off?

I was supposed to die there because, of course, I was allergic to dust. And so actually, I don't know if that was one of the main reasons. But my father worked like, you know what, to get us out. And even then, it took him over almost a year to get us out of there. And I survived, obviously. And yes, we were kind of different.

But yeah, you know, we, we experienced the same thing as everybody else and up until then, but as soon as we got to Minidoka, of course, in our situation, our situation was different, you know, and and of course, obviously I survived. I'm still here. And, but the fact is, yes, we all suffered and and the information that, doctor, Nagata had, you know, presented.

Yes. It happened some of it happened to us. And but I also realized that we were lucky. But our grandma, who was an alien, even though she came to America in 1907, she had to stay in the camp for the duration. She was there until October of 1945. In other words, she was there three, three, four years. And why?

Because she was an alien. Well, they wouldn't let her become a naturalized citizen. Like like the Asians and so forth. And so she had to stay there and, and and we had to leave. Because if I, if we didn't leave Paul Tomita wouldn't be talking to you today. Thank you.

Robyn Achilles: You know, that's a great point, Paul. And, you know, I, I probably should have started with Mary because, as Doctor Nagata said, the the experiences based on your generation, are are somewhat different. And for Mary, being a Nisei, I think she and Mary is the only Nisei on our call today. You know, her experience was different, having Issei parents.

Luckily, my father had a cafe. So we had, you know, we had, you know, we had food and we had my father had respect in the community. He was a boss. So we respected him. What was different is that we lived almost all, lived at the cafe. We ate all our meals there, and we only went home to sleep.

For instance, I wasn't daring. As a child, I can't swim, ride a bike. Now I can't drive busy freeways. I always wanted to be athletic, but never was. In my younger years, I lacked confidence in expressing my thoughts. I tended to want to conform. To fit in was very important to fit in. My family's ideal for us all, was to become educated, go to college, get married to a Japanese, buy a house, buy a car.

Karen, how was it for you being, a Sansei and your family, you know, settled in Idaho after incarceration?

Of Japanese families in Twin Falls. So we always shared holidays and, birth days, and but there was always a Japanese twist to them. You know, birthdays were always Japanese food. And in Twin Falls, you. There were no Japanese restaurants. So it was always home cooked Japanese food and sekihan for birthday. And, you know. But it was kind of like we lived in two different worlds.

There was the JA world that we shared, and then the outside world that we lived in with our, our peers and our schoolmates.

Robyn Achilles: Wendy, how about how about you? How do you see your family?

Always remember you are representing all other people, all other Japanese Americans, and you want the people to have a favorable, favorable impression of, of your people. So you know, keep that in mind. Don't go to honky tonks or taverns because it will reflect badly on, other Japanese Americans. And somebody there might get drunk and will basically hurt you, right?

And I, I, I have not stopped thinking about that document since I uncovered it. I have, I realized here in black and white where the instructions all these Nisei were given on how to raise their children, you know, so we would be safe. So, you know, laying low, not rocking the boat, all of all of these things that some of you have have talked about.

I got my gas filled up at the JA gas station. My dry cleaner was JA because those are people who patronize my dad's drugstore. So, you know, it was a very tight knit community. And it was it was, I feel these impacts that we're talking about, I could see it in my peers, you know, this hesitancy to, I think, Mary you were talking about, to to take risks.

This, this real overachiever drive so that we could prove we were good Americans, that we could prove that we had abilities and so we could find our place in America that had real costs. You know, I mean, I am a type A overachiever, and that had real costs. It's hard trying to be perfect all the time.

And when he had been in, was taken away, he had just started his second pharmacy, opened his second pharmacy, and he had a brand new Chevrolet coupe and had to sell it for nothing. And the stores were just gone. And, he never really got over it. And I, you know, lots of details about all of this stuff that happened to him, you guys, that I'm not going to drag us down with all of that, but with the importance, the thing that is germane to this conversation is that bitterness that he felt that anger would erupt at, like.

You know, strange times. I would be driving along and someone would stare at us a little too long. You know. What the hell are you staring at? You know, or and or things like one time. And this wasn't off, often because, you know, we're five kids. You know, we didn't have a ton of money, but one time we stayed at a motel someplace, and I remember in the morning, he said, now, always leave the place better than when you found it, because they'll have a good impression of Japanese.

It was it was brutal, to be honest with you. You know, I had so many friends. They knew in junior high that they had to become doctors. And a lot of them did, you know, or engineers or something where your accomplishments were measurable. It wasn't something, you know, because you were only going to be judged. You had to have something concrete, to show your value.

What a loss. And they had the best of intentions doing it. They just wanted us to fit in.

Robyn Achilles: Thanks. Thanks, Wendy. Yeah. No, that's, thank you for sharing some of your, experiences with your with your parents, you know, and I, you know, I think one of the big themes, you know, she talked about was the silence and how that silence really impacted all of us and confusion and how they communicated.

Wendy Tokuda: you know, they they didn't talk about it. But all of the humiliation they faced being they were prisoners, it took me a long time to say. My parents met in a prison camp. I am the child prisoners. You don't walk out of those gates and everything is okay. You carry all of that humiliation and that pain and that the loss of your those those years, and then have it, like, go away when you have kids.

We felt all of their trauma. We felt it whether they said the words or not. We felt all of those feelings. It did not stop when they left the gates. And, those are the things that became, we we were immersed in it. We were immersed in it. So they were communicating all the time what they experienced.

You know, we may not have known where all of that came from until later, but, it all, we we grew up immersed in it, right?

Robyn Achilles: The silence told us something because there was confusion about this time and that we knew that we weren't supposed to ask about it or say anything. And so doctor Nagata talked about that a lot, and then also how it resonated with the yonsei, but also how they were raised at a different time.

And so how that impacted them differently. So, Stephen, would you share a little bit about your experience as a yonsei?

Stephen Kitajo: Yeah, I think as a yonsei, growing up very early on, I was I was very much. American rather than Japanese, American. I'd have to say, you know, we there were some elements of JA culture that I grew up with, but not. You know, not too many. Not as many, I think, as maybe my, my parents might have had.

Of my dad's side, everyone has a very American made American first name. American middle name. You know, so having that contrast between the two sides of my family has helped me see these differences a lot clearer than I think I might otherwise have. But on both sides, there was very much a silence about talking about camp experiences.

But when I would ask my parents, you know, what our family history camp was, they had didn't really have an idea because they, that information was never passed down to them by their parents. Because you just, they just didn't talk about it. And in a way, I think that. Has pushed me, you know.

Wendy Tokuda: Oh, did we lose this sound?

Robyn Achilles: Oops. Stephen, we lost your sound for for a minute.

Oh, there you are.

Stephen Kitajo: Can you hear me now?

Robyn Achilles: Yeah.

Stephen Kitajo: Okay. Where should I go back to?

Wendy Tokuda: Just the last few sentences.

Stephen Kitajo: Okay.

So I was talking about how my. I didn't know a lot of the history. My parents, when I ask my parents, they didn't know the history either. It was. It was never passed down to them from their parents. And I think that I know at least there's regret.

Wendy Tokuda: We lost you again, Stephen.

There's some positives about incarceration that she mentioned, like the Japanese cultural values that helped the community after, would anyone like to talk a little bit about that?

Karen.

Karen Hirai Olen: Well, I think that, like Stephen and Wendy, my parents never talked about camp to us. When my mom's childhood friends would come and visit us, they would speak to each other in Japanese about camp, so we assumed it was something they didn't want us to know. So therefore we assumed it was bad. And, so, but there were certain things that cultural things or.

I don't know, maybe they were just manners, that we were always, things about. I don't know if it's culture, you know, respecting elders and to be sure that whenever there were guests in your home that you accommodated them first, in terms of when you were, meals or whatever. But I think the other thing were probably like holidays.

We always celebrated New Year's, with typical Oshugatsu stuff.

But the other side of it is they tried to make sure we were totally American, made sure we celebrated the 4th of July appropriately and, you know, with fireworks and, you know, all that stuff. So it was kind of.

We had to be 200% American. Plus, there was another part of us that was allowed to be Japanese, quote unquote. But because I grew up in Twin Falls, you know, my Japanese ness, there's a word that, always had kind of tinged with Hakujin. So my California friend said, you have your Hakujin ways. And I didn't understand that until I lived in LA for about ten years.

Robyn Achilles: Yeah. So, Paul, how about for you? You know the difference, Karen. You know, I was raised in Twin Falls. How about for you going back to Seattle and being within a Japanese-American?

You know I'm guilty. I'm guilty.

Robyn Achilles: You're so bad.

Karen Hirai Olen: Guilty of that. We made fun of her.

Paul Tomita: Oh, that poor woman, you know. And I regret it. Of course. 83 years old now. And of course, you know, my Japanese is pitiful. It's. But it's my fault. But it took me years to figure it out. Okay.

Karen Hirai Olen: But again.

We have to start the Boy Scouts. We have to start the Cub Scouts. We have to start the Campfire Girls. We have to do everything to make up for the being shunned by the white dominant community. Okay? Even in Seattle, Seattle, they. They discriminated against us, but they did it nicely, okay? They didn't tell us. Get the hell out of here.

Hey, it was a hangout.

Robyn Achilles: Oh, I know.

Karen Hirai Olen: Everybody.

Paul Tomita: Went there, And you had that soda fountain.

Robyn Achilles: Oh my God, yes.

Paul Tomita: Oh, my gosh. I mean, that was that was my favorite thing. I would do anything to go and sit there. And your mom would make us, you know, the floats and all this kind of stuff.

Robyn Achilles: Yeah. It was my first job.

Paul Tomita: Oh, hey.

Karen Hirai Olen: Yeah. Root beer float.

Robyn Achilles: Us.

Paul Tomita: Yeah. The Tokudas sold me on that. There you go. It was one of my favorite activities to go to. But see, and and the, the Japanese community, we knew that we were being discriminated against, you know, and so we had to come up with activities to fill our children in our community with, as some hope or with some activity so that we weren't so that we wouldn't go nuts, you know, that we would just be sitting there alone, alone and, and, you know, and hit the sauce and, and do, you know, very inappropriate things.

And so what we did was, yes, the Japanese-American community, you know, we made a concerted effort to provide activities, particularly for our youth. And, and and again, hey, this this is what and I am a product of that. If I didn't have that, you know, other than the YMCA, well, what would I do? You know what what other things would I you know, in the white Boy Scouts, you know, in the community, they didn't want us there.

So, you know, where would we have. So what did we do? We started our own Boy Scouts and Campfire Girls and all the other kinds of stuff. Because if we didn't, if they didn't do that, our parents didn't do that. Basically, Niseis, but also Isseis, if they didn't do that, we would have turned out to be a real mess.

You know, today.

Wendy Tokuda: I actually think psychologically, you know, you said half normal. I think you're right there. I think there was some real damage done to. I mean, I just think about all the JAs I went to school with and went to church. I went to Japanese Presbyterian Church and, and you're right about the second, about creating our own activities.

Robyn Achilles: But there was real psychological damage. I mean, you know, we knew there was something wrong with us. We didn't belong, you know, we didn't fit out there. Yeah.

Paul Tomita: No we didn't.

Robyn Achilles: It was like living in two worlds. Two separate worlds. Well, and so, Mary, I'd like to go to, you know, hearing how it was for you to return, Karen, for your family to be in Twin Falls and Paul and Wendy for your family to be in Seattle with the Japanese-American community. I wanted to ask Mary what it was like for her, in Alaska when her family returned.

And then, I want to go back to Steven for a moment.

His, his business prospered. He was able to get loans from German baker and a German grocer, and they said, you don't have to pay us back till you are solvent again. So we fit. Fit in. But we were separated. We also lived in two worlds, like everyone else. There was downtown where we lived, and uptown, where the white people lived.

Stay within the family, protect that person and do not let it go out. And I think this silence is what other people have talked about too, is not only shame, but it was also inadequate language. We didn't have the vocabulary. We couldn't speak to our parents, our parents couldn't speak to us. So I think maybe like, you know, like in Steven's generation now there is a common sense vocabulary that they could, exchange.

But it was really difficult with Isseis and Niseis, and, also I thought that, the work it was very important to work. That was one way to rise, you know, and so work is is very endemic in our family. If you don't do your part, someone else has to do it for you. So that is a value that, that was very important in my family.

And I think it helped.

Robyn Achilles: Steven. Steven, would you share a little bit more? I know we got cut off a little earlier.

Stephen Kitajo: Share more about the going back to question one.

Robyn Achilles: Yeah, just your family continuing with your family. How you see your family. Are you as a Yonsei, experiencing this?

And I definitely remember, you know, feeling a need to not disappoint, not just my parents, but also my grandparents. Because they would they would, you know, they had. Oh, wouldn't it be nice if you were this, you know, or you did this? And I think that that, you know, gets into your mind and gets into your head a little bit and makes you feel like you need to do these things.

To, I guess, make them happy or make them proud. And I think I learned a lot of my life like that just doing all the extracurricular activities, you know, trying to do my best academically. And I think in a lot of ways that there was a trade off. It was definitely a trade off, that I didn't see, you know, probably until after I graduated from college.

And then I was like, well, now. Now what? There's no longer, you know, a lot of those, all those extracurriculars that need to achieve academically. It ends, you know, once you're done, you know, once I got through college and it was, made me look back on that and really examine it and see that that was kind of an effect, of my upbringing.

Mary Abo: Well, I, I've been, I think, three times to Minidoka, and I brought my sister the first time. She's, eight years older than me, and she didn't want to go, but I talked her into it, and she said she was glad she went there, because she could revisit a traumatic period and not feel, she could feel that she had passed that point of fear.

And I went again with my daughter and her children, and that was really good, because they really, feel that I have shared a part of my history with them. And, I think she understands, you know, what our family went through. So, yeah, Minidoka being there and being with others and being with the younger people, as well as the older people, everyone sharing their experience makes you it just makes you feel like a, you know, really like you belong.

Robyn Achilles: Paul you were recently at Minidoka.

Karen Hirai Olen: Yes. Yes.

Paul Tomita: Yeah, I, I've been going on site to Minidoka since, I guess, early 2000. Because one day, during that time, my wife, said, Paul, when was the last time you were at Minidoka? And then I says, when we got out in 1943, you know, and something like 50 years had passed and and she said, don't you think that you would like to go there and take a look before you die?

You know, and so I, I, you know, we started going and I started going and actually this last time in June, you know, after the pandemic and so forth, I went with my wife and, I was there in early June. And the interesting part of this last visit, though, was I had expressed to Kurt, Ikeda, you know, that you know, one of the leaders in it, Minidoka, you know, and I had I had asked is, you know, is it ever would.

Robyn Achilles: It be.

Paul Tomita: Possible if I could actually visit the actual site where our where our block and barracks were?

Wendy Tokuda: Wow.

Robyn Achilles: You know, and all these years.

Paul Tomita: Now, I've never seen it from the early 2000 until now. You know, I've never I've never actually stepped on that thing. So, while I was there in June, Kurt says, hey, how would you like me to take, you know. And I had asked him before he says, how would you like to for an to, you know, to take me on an actual site?

And he says, you know, it's still owned by a white farmer, okay. That area. And he says, but I have a good relationship with him. And so if we take the park, you know, service car, let's go. And so boom, he took me there and again and I took pictures and videos and so forth. And again, I had not stepped on that soil where barracks 12, I mean, block 12, barracks five, section E, you know, I had not ever been on there since July 4th, Independence Day, 1943.

Robyn Achilles: Karen, would you like to add anything?

Karen Hirai Olen: Well, I've spent since I've become a volunteer to friends of Minidoka. I've spent a lot of time at this site, including yesterday. But I think that one of the things that still affects me deeply is that I think the reparations hearings and stuff gave the Nisei permission to talk about it with each other and in a way, to let us know, what really happened to them.

And in some, on some levels, what they felt about it. Thank God for the pilgrimages because, I was, able to talk my mother into going one year. I moved back to Idaho in 2006. So I think it was 2008. And, I had talked with her about going this before, and she said no. And then I said, well, the next year I said, I signed you up.

And my mother, being Nisei, is very thrifty. So she didn't want to waste see that money go to waste. So she went. And then the next year she invited her two sisters to join us. And that was wow, really interesting, where I learned about a lot of things that even that they would talk about amongst themselves and knew that I was there.

And I think they did it for my benefit. And because I was 18 months old when we moved out of camp. And, so I think that, the, the pilgrimages, I think really benefited the Nisei community. I think also my mom being able to see other Niseis, it was a safe place for her and her sisters to share their experiences with each other, which I think is was really interesting to them because they would see people and they'd say, oh, remember when blah blah blah.

And, they even talked about, pre-evacuation. Do you remember when this family or that family needed different things that. So, I think I just hope the pilgrimages start again.

Robyn Achilles: Yeah, I do too.

Robyn Achilles: And to.

Karen Hirai Olen: Create, get a perspective about what their families went through. Collectively and then individually and as families.

Robyn Achilles: Thank you Karen. So my very last closing question for all of you is this series with the Idaho Humanities Council is funded by, National Endowment for the Humanities program, a more perfect union. As we pursue this more perfect union for our country, what do you hope people will take away from our discussion today? Wendy, would you like to start?

Wendy Tokuda: Well, I mean, my great, great hope is that, we can become, I know our stories and our history can become a part, an accepted part of the greater history of this country. Because right now, of course, it's a very strange time in American history. And there's such division and, you know, books about the internment, one book has been banned.

And, You know, any, any talk of things that happened, people are going to creates more division. You know, I you're saying these things to make us feel guilty that, you know, make us feel guilty and I, I just think it's so important to know not just what happened, but the lasting effects. Effects of something like this happening to anyone, to anyone.

These stories, you know, I want them to be woven into the great American history.

Robyn Achilles: Stephen share some of your thoughts.

Stephen Kitajo: I think, people, to take away a greater understanding of intergenerational trauma and the lasting effects that, you know, these actions can have is important because this this intergenerational trauma can happen and has happened to so many people, because of various injustices. And that that is something that we can unite around is a desire to, you know.

Our quest for justice and wanting to ensure that this trauma is not inflicted on anyone else. I don't know how anyone can say that they would not be in favor of that. And working towards, you know, making sure that the lessons from our history continue to be learned, so that we remember what we need to do to avoid this in the future and to work towards a better future for everyone.

Robyn Achilles: Stephen. Paul?

Paul Tomita: Okay. My statement is that, my hope, of course, for America. Is that what happened to us 80 years ago never happens again. And one way that we can work toward that goal is, you know, we Japanese Americans and, you know, the aliens and all of our grandmas and grandpas, went through hell. Okay. And, we are in the ideal position to speak up and and say, hey, America particularly,

I'm talking to white America. Hey, America, you know, you did this to us. You know, the few of us are still alive to say it, but also we also have to step forward. You know, I don't care to what level it is, but we descendants, survivors, whoever it is, we have to step forward and remind white America, you know, don't ever do that again to anybody.

You know, they're not going to do it to us, you know, again. But they are you know, we have people here in America who have no problems doing it to the latest group. You know, be they Muslims, be they, you know, African Americans, be they Native Americans, be they whatever, you know, you know, and we have to step forward and say, you know, we went through this hell and it ain't pretty.

And it is not American, okay? It is not democratic. And, we have we are in the best position to step forward and say we experienced it. It was crappy. It was hell.

Robyn Achilles: Karen?

Karen Hirai Olen: I think that the message that I would like to see as a result of this is that for the JA community. I think that we've been traumatized with the concept that being JA is a bad thing, to shape the silence from our, our parents and so forth. And I would like to see.

I think it's a message, but it's also a value that we as JAs need to incorporate into our ethic, is that one we need to learn there's nothing wrong with us. We, you know, either in any way and two, there is a positive. Very enhancing value to perpetuating our cultural systems that we grew up with. And I think that the next generations I would like to see incorporate it. You know, we did nothing wrong.

We were victims. But I think also we need to step, learn to step away from the victim mode and see that we prevail in terms of our values and what we see is right. I don't know how we're going to get there, but,

Robyn Achilles: Mary?

Mary Abo: Well, I, I see, the future being very different than how we've experienced it. I think that JA identity will start to fade because our children are marrying, you know, intermarrying. It's going to be elusive. But I think the essence of our experience is to learn and be empathetic for all people. Well, we have to have we have to we have to glean what's good from our experience and the strength that we've got from it.

So I believe there's going to be big changes. And, we have a lot to contribute from our experiences.

Robyn Achilles: Thank you so much, everyone, for, sharing your stories and your family's experiences with us today. I deeply appreciate your time. Today, we, also hope the viewers of this series will come visit Minidoka National Historic Site in Jerome, Idaho. The visitor center is open for the season and tours with the park rangers are available through Labor Day weekend.