Suzy Avery; Mike Crosby
Interviewee: Suzy Avery; Mike Crosby
Interviewer: Doug Exton
Description: An overview of Sacajawea from 1805-106 and the Lewis and Clark Expedition's time in Lemhi County, Idaho. Jumping back to today, a look at the different portrayals and representations of Sacajawea throughout the 20th and 21st century and the establishment and mission of the Sacajawea Center today. Bios: Suzy Avery, Director of the Sacagawea Interpretive, Cultural, and Educational Center, Salmon, ID Mike Crosby, Historian and Author
Date: 2022-02-08
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Doug Exton: Thank you so much for joining us for today's connected conversation in. This program is funded through a more perfect union initiative of the National Endowment of the Humanities. If you want to check out some more of the work we do at the IHC, you can visit our website, idahohumanities.org, or find us on Instagram at Idaho Humanities. I would like to remind you all that you may submit any questions using the Q&A feature at the bottom of the screen.
If you submit any questions through the chat. I can't guarantee that we'll be able to get to them today. And with me today are Suzy Avery and Mike Crosby to talk about Sacajawea.
Suzy Avery: All right. Well, thank you. And thank you for having us. Having us today. Before we get going, I just want to make a quick acknowledgment that the land the Sacajawea Center sits on is the traditional and continue to remain the traditional homelands of the Agaidika Shoshone people. And with that, I will turn it over to Mike Crosby, local historian, who will talk about second.
Mike Crosby: Well, I think that was record time for the name question to to come up this morning. You know, most historians prefer, Sacagawea here. But not in Idaho. And we prefer Sacagewea because that's what we find in the journals. The origin of the Sacajawea has several different explanations. And, rather than deal with that, we just stick with what,
What Lewis and Clark wrote to people who who actually knew her. She was born probably about 1788, in this area, the homeland of the Agaidika was the seven River basin and Idaho in the upper Beaverhead, in Montana. And about the year 1800, when she was about 12, she was with her people on a buffalo hunt over at the Three Forks of the Missouri.
They did that every year, delaying a supply of buffalo jerky for the for the winter. While they were there, they were attacked by a war party of, Hidatsa who come from what's now North Dakota. There were several people killed. There were several people taken, captured, including Sacajawea. And one of her, young friends, and was taken back to what we call the Knife River Village Complex, where there were three lots and two men.
Then the villagers. And she lived in the village thats known as the Metahartsa. Among the Arikara Hidatsa. What her life there was like. We really have no idea. No running water, road, anything. She certainly has some culture shock. She learned to do things that the Shoshone woman didn't do, particularly gardening. They were, they were farmers.
So that later, sometime in the spring of 1804, she became the wife of Toussaint Charbonneau, who was a French Canadian, trader and interpreter who had lived among the Hidatsa since about, 1795. And he already had one Shoshone wife. We say that time because she became pregnant with their first child. In October, the Lewis and Clark expedition reached that village complex and Charbonneau was gone.
He was away on the hunt, and when he came back, the Hidatsa told him about Lewis and Clark arriving American soldiers. And they were going to spend the winter. So he went down to find them to offer his services as a interpreter. He noticed that there were some Frenchmen among the, the soldiers, and one of them probably first.
Well, the beach, he was introduced to, to William Clark explained what he could do in Clark as an interpreter. Clark explained that the following spring they were not going home. They intended to go to, the Pacific coast. But what they understood as the best way, which is up the Missouri River, crossed the mountains and down the Columbia River.
And when they said that, Charbonneau said, you know, one of my wives, her people lived that they had what is it, the Missouri. And if you take us along, she could interpret for you if we find them. And they thought that was just a great idea because they might need to to perhaps, rent or buy horses to cross those, those mountains.
And so he went home and told Sacagawea. And that that she was going to have a dream come true, that she couldn't possibly have dreamed the idea of going home again. And so, but a week later, she came down to where they were building Fort Mandan, and she brought with her for buffalo robes, had as gifts a very, Shoshone thing, and wanted to be a, Pendleton blanket, then a buffalo robe.
So they moved into the fort. In mid-February, she gave birth their first child. His Shoshone name was Pumpy is, French name from his father was was Jean Baptiste. And then in April, the ice was gone and they set up the Missouri River to resume the expedition. She looked for ways to contribute that she hadn't been expected to, to do.
For example, she noticed that they were interested in any new plants or animals, so she would tell them what she knew about those, and she proved to have a cool head in an emergency. The worst one probably was the 14th of May, when one of the large boats, a pirogue, had its sails set, catches the wind, but the wind changed and slow around in the current, and tipped over so far that water started coming in the gunnels of the boat on the on the downstream side and Sacagawea
Was was sitting there, and so as these wooden crates began to float in the water out of the boat, she grabbed them and pulled them back in. Both Lewis and Clark complimented her on, on her courage and keeping her mind, at that time. And a week later, they got to a new river and named it for her.
They called it Sacagawea or Bird Woman's River. And a week after that, she almost died. Lewis thought they were going to lose her. They had arrived at, at the Great Falls and discovered that it was going to take a week. I'm sorry, a month to get around, because it was not just one fall. It was a series of several, and her symptoms were very severe pain, and she got a high fever.
The things that they used to treat her, I don't think probably did much good. She somehow managed to recover young and healthy enough, I hope, despite what they did rather than because of what they did. So now they were finally into the Rocky Mountains, and she began to recognize landmarks, which is very encouraging to the men, because they were anxious to find the Shoshone and perhaps, get out of the boats and have some horses when they reach the three forks.
That's the place where she had been captured. She told them about what happened that day. And that's how we have that that information, they continued up the Jefferson River. And about a week after that, Lewis decided to set out on foot, see if he could find the Shoshone before they left for their annual buffalo hunt. At that time, the river was such that it was much faster to walk, and so he left for the small party and crossed Lemhi Pass and what's not Idaho, and managed to find the Shoshone on the Lemhi River near present day Salmon.
About 20 years. So came back with him with the bypass to rendezvous with Clark and his party, and among them was the chief. His name was kept me away. They reunited and maybe the most famous moment of the expedition. I think one of the great moments of American history when she realized that, the chief was not her brother, Charlie Holloway.
And shortly afterwards, she recognized another Shoshone woman who was there as the young girl who had escaped after she had been captured and somehow made it back home. Unfortunately, after the council was over, her friend took her aside and told her that most of her relatives had died since she had been gone in that five years, she still had two brothers and a nephew.
Well, the Samon River proved to be not negotiable for Lewis and Clark, and so they bought about 30 Shoshone horses and headed across the mountains, the Lolo Trail, and he was in the land of the nearly two, the Nez Perce. And they do dugout canoes there on the Clearwater River. The Nez Perce agreed to hold their horses over the winter.
And so down the river they went the the Clearwater, then the Snake and the Columbia. And another service was just sort of accidental. They noticed that, sometimes that the people they approached, their villages were somewhat apprehensive about this strange group of men coming down the river until they saw, a woman and a baby. And they knew that was not a war, partly because you didn't take, women and children along on raids.
They got down to the mouth of the Columbia River, and a significant event happened. The symbolic event happened there. You'll hear about that later on, I'm sure. And they decided to spend the winter with they called Fort Clatsop, and it was a long winter, 12 days that that, had no precipitation. The rest of the time it was cold and wet.
This was pre Starbucks. So late March, they they gathered up their belongings and headed back up the Columbia River, back to Idaho, where they, collected their horses from the Nez Perce. And when they were able to cross the mountains, they're crossed a little trail. And you present the Missoula. They split up into two detachments. Lewis had one group and then directly east to the Great Falls.
Clark took the rest of the party down the Bitterroot River and crossed the mountains into the big hole. And at the at that point, she became what? Later stories had about her as doing for pretty much the whole expedition. She actually became a guy. When they got into the big hole, she remembered a route close to where they were to where they had left their newest in the year before, on the upper Beaverhead River.
And so they they went there, they got the canoe is back on the water. So boats and horses, they were going down the river once again to the Three Forks. And Clark said, several men with the canoes down to meet Dr. Lewis at the Great Falls. And he continued, to the east with Sacajawea and the other members of the expedition who were still on board at that time.
She showed him where Bozeman Pass. So in that one week she was a guide for for Captain Clark. When they reached the Yellowstone River there, the horses were stolen, probably by the crows. And so they built a new canoe, and it had gone down the river. They reunited with Lewis party just below the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri.
And then in mid-August, they were back home at, at Knife River. And they may have gone further with the expedition. The Charbonneau family had a an so, chief, they were willing to go with Lewis and Clark, but none of them were. And so they did not require their interpretive services any longer. And there they stayed.
But Clark made it very clear to Charbonneau. So I think become very fond of the family, particularly the little boy Pumpy. And he told Charbonneau that he would do anything in his power to help them if he wanted to get a start in life someplace else, like they Saint Louis. So nine, three years later, in 1809, they were able to take advantage of that offer.
The Charbonneau family went to Saint Louis, with the party of fur traders. They stayed there for about a year and a half. They got some land. But there was something about the way of life in the area that they decided to go home. They did, however leave their son, Jean Baptiste Little Pumpy in Saint Louis to be educated?
And Clark would look after him? Charbonneau was hired by a fur company to be an interpreter, at a trading post at their home, their former home up nice River. So that you love them. They went back up the river in 1812. It was decided that they would close that that trading post and the company built a new one, to the south among the Arikara tribe, close to the border of present day North Dakota and South Dakota.
About the time that they moved down there. Sacajewea had her her second child. We don't know if she had any miscarriages during that time. Between the birth of her son and her second child, a little girl named, Lizette, Lizette was born, was healthy and doing well. But in December, the clerk of the fort, recorded that, that that she had died.
Charbonneau's woman, a snake squaw, died of a putrid fever aged about 25 years. She was the best woman in the fort. She leaves behind a fine infant girl. Now, when we look at a possible cause for that, we go back to that, incident in 1805, when, four months after the birth of her son, she became very ill and almost died.
And. And after the birth of her second child was that she did pass away. And among the many contenders, I think the most likely, reason for her death was a disease called pelvic inflammatory disease or PID. She probably had contracted an STD sometime during her life, and that sometimes damages the reproductive organs and makes it more likely to die from PID, which is it creates a very, strong, infection, an infection that they at that time had had no means, to cope with.
Lizzette survived, there had to have been other nursing, mom there. Several months later, that fort was attacked, some people were killed, and the survivors, including those, and then the Clark flying down the river to Saint Louis, and they had soon, because they had not seen two signs, however, know that that he had died.
And so first the Clark and then later William Clark became the the illegal guardian of the two of the two children. And I will perhaps have some questions later on. But right now I think it's time for.
Suzy Avery: Well, thank you, Mike. Fascinating. And just just such a wonderful job, talking about Sacajawea, and her life and the Lewis and Clark expedition. So the next part of this program is going to look at the different depictions and representations of Sacajawea, through the 20th and 21st century.
Right. I'll get my slideshow going here. Just an image of, the Beaverhead Mountains taken here from the Sacajawea Center. And then an image from Lemhi Pass where Lewis and Clark came over and, of course, met Sacajawea as people that I did the. So at the turn of the 20th century, there was an influx of literature and books about the sack, about Sacajawea.
We have and the Lewis and Clark expedition. In 1902, Oregon suffragette Eva Emery Dye published her book "Conquest: The True Story of Lewis and Clark". In it she wrote of Sacajawea, her hair was neatly braided, her nose was fine and straight, and her skin pure copper, like the statue in some old Florentine gallery. Madonna of her race.
She had led the way to a new time. And this is where I'm going to mention that we don't actually know what Sacajawea looked like. So any depictions in representations that we see of her are just that depictions and representations, including even our statue here at the Sacajawea Center. It's just a depiction of what Sacajawea may have looked like.
And so Eva Emery Dye, in her work, saying that this is what it looks, I don't know, she came up with this on her own. And why? Why would she describe Sacajawea had to look like this. And why would why why is the big question. And so part of this is that the women's suffrage movement had been looking for a heroine to push their cause forward, and they found one or more accurately created one in Sacajawea, with Sacajawea and York, the African American enslaved by Clark, were both given a vote on where to set up camp in December 1805, though not entirely democratic process as we know today.
Each vote counted, and Fort Clatsop was built, and the corps stayed there from December to March 1806. Besides having a vote, the suffragettes also took Sacajawea and made her this civilizing agent that they said all women were civilizing agents of society, and that she took motherhood and patriotism and showed how they go hand in hand that admitted to sabotaging her own agenda, saying, finally I came upon the name Sacajawea and I screamed, I have found my heroine. In 1905, the National American Women's Suffrage Organization held its 37th annual meeting at Church in Portland, Oregon.
The convention met from June 29th through July 5th to discuss ways to advance women's suffrage rights. Some of the notable attendees were Susan B. Anthony, Anna Howard Shaw, Carrie Chapman Catt, and Lucy Stone. This meeting also coincided with the 1905 Lewis and Clark Exposition that was also taking place in Portland, Oregon. Dye led the Sacajawea, a statue association which had been raising funds by selling Sacagawea a buttons and spoons.
They collected over $7,000 to have sculptor Alice Cooper create a copper statue of Sacajawea. It was unveiled during the exposition in 1905, and July 6th, 1905 was proclaimed Sacajawea Day. And here's an image of that copper statue, which is still intact and standing today. The statue, unique in that it was of a woman, funded by women and created by a woman, was not the first statue of Sacajawea in the United States, though in 1904, Bruno Lewis Dam was commissioned to create a statue of Sacagawea for the Louisiana Purchase Exposition at the Saint Louis World's Fair.
Interestingly enough, the 1904 World's Fair also featured the girls basketball team from Fort Shaw Boarding School, who was playing in exposition games and defeating their opponents. School officials, working with Montana journalists, proclaimed the team champions of the world. One of the women who was on this team was a young woman named Minnie Barton, and she was an Arikara, a woman from here in the Lemhi Valley and from the same band as Sacagawea.
While the statue no longer stands, the 1905 statue still remains. And while the suffragettes upheld Sacajawea as a shining example of why Euro-American women should have the right to vote in 1907, Sacajawea's people, the Shoshone Bannock, were being forcibly removed from their homelands here in the Lehigh Valley, over 400 people were forcibly marched from the, Executive Order Reservation here in the Lemhi Valley down to Fort Hall, the Fort Hall Reservation near present day Pocatello, Idaho.
The 19th amendment was ratified in 1920, but if Sacajawea we had been alive, she would not been given a right to vote. Indigenous people were not granted United States citizens until 1924 with the Snyder Act, and were not granted full voting rights in the United States until the Voting Rights Act of 1965. The last state to allow indigenous people to vote was Utah in 1962.
During this time, another suffragette had started working to produce a biography and information on Sacajawea. Grace Raymond Hebard was a political science professor at the University of Wyoming, and printed an article in 1907 stating that a member of the Wyoming Legislature had informed her that he actually knew Sacajawea and her offspring. This would lead Hebard to work on interviewing and producing information that suggested
Sacajawea did not die in 1812 and actually died in 1884 and was buried at the Wind River reservation. Wind River reservation in present day Wyoming. Hebard would ultimately produce a biography of Sacajawea in 1933 entitled Sacajawea A Guide and Interpreter of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Because of the back and forth between Wyoming and South Dakota and others on where Sacajawea was buried, the Bureau of Indian Affairs would hire Doctor Charles Eastman to investigate and find out where she was buried.
Doctor Eastman is, probably best known as the as a physician who attended to an assisted the wounded after the massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. He Sioux Dakota and he interviewed people from the Comanche, Graton, Hidatsa, and Eastern Shoshone tribes. He came to the conclusion that Sacajawea had lived to old age and was buried on the Wind River reservation, citing that his knowledge of indigenous mothers, that Sacajawea would have never left Pumpy with Clark and gone back west, because he had his knowledge of this indigenous mother straight.
Is that he that she would have never had done that. So that was one of his reasons, as well as the different oral histories and traditions he would cite. So like Hebard, he would believe that Sacajawea lived to old age. The depiction of Sacajawea shows her living and long and incredible life traveling to the US that way. But most historians believe she is buried in present day South Dakota and died in 1812.
They cite the journals of John Ludwick that, might talked about and Clark's own cash book that stated she had passed. Clark died in 1838. So there are more statues and monuments to Sacajawea, than any almost any other woman in the world. In 1910, two different statues were erected in her honor, one by Edward Cyrus Dallin and one by Lenore Cornell, a French immigrant, and that was commissioned by the General Foundation of the Women's Club in North Dakota and was placed in front of the North Dakota Capitol at that time.
And this is an image of the 1910 ... statue.
Other images where Sacajawea would be depicted were in, famous paintings by some of the famous Western, painters of the time. Charlie Russell was commissioned by the governor of Montana to paint a mural for the Montana State Capitol. And this is called Lewis and Clark Meeting the Indians at Ross's Hall. And today it still hangs in the Montana State Capitol in the House of Representatives.
It's huge. It covers the entire wall and it's amazing. Piece of artwork hangs out there. And, in the corner you can see on the right hand corner of the screen, Sacajawea a kneeling in the grass while Toby, who was at the an interpreter that was with, along with Lewis and Clark for part of it, he, interprets to the indigenous people while Lewis and Clark look on.
One of the things I think when we see this image is what we we notice more so the indigenous people on horseback in the front of the painting. And Sacajawea is a little more hidden, so you can't see much of the depiction of her. And just a side note, it's interesting is the legend is that the wolf here in front, Charlie Russell, painted in front because at the time he painted this in 1911 and, to 1912, he was sworn enemies with the speaker of the House.
So he put this wolf in there. That is right above where the podium is for the speaker. So today, a home, Mr. Hunt, over 100 years later, that will still is glaring and sneering down at the speaker of the House. Also commissioned in 1911 was this painting, by the Montana state government for the Montana Capitol building? It is called Lewis and Clark at the Three Marks, and it depicts Sacajawea pointing out the way to Lewis for Lewis and Clark.
Today it still hangs in the Montana State Capitol in the House of Representatives entryway. And again, you can see the long braids, the copper skin. And she, has Pumpy on her back. So through the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, the kind of romanticized view of Sacajawea that di had started, continued. And in 1942, you the USS Sacajawea, was named in her honor.
It was a tugboat. It was maybe that same year. But then retained by the Maritime Commission. And so the next thing I kind of have up on the screen, here are two of the biggest things, I guess, that we get asked about here at the center. And that is the film "The Far Horizons" and the book "Sacajawea", by Anna Lee Waldo and so into the 50s, 60s, 70s, this myth and romanticized version of Sacajawea a continued and, even I think more was the idea that Sacajawea, and William Clark had a romantic relationship.
So in 1962, "The Far Horizons" premiered, Fred MacMurray played Captain Meriwether Lewis, Charlton Heston was William Clark, and Donna Reed played Sacajawea. She's better known for her role, and it's a Wonderful Life in this film. They continued the myth. Clark and Sacajawea are having a romantic relationship.
In 1979, Anna Lee Wilder published her book "Sacajawea". It's even though critics and historians, were claimed it was inaccurate. Not historically correct, it's still remained at the top of the bestseller list for the New York Times for several months. It would be republished in 1984 after plagiarism claims. And so this book is one of the ones that when visitors come to visit the Sacajawea Center is the most cited as their knowledge of Sacajawea.
The first half of the book has had some historically accurate information, but overall the book is historical fiction. So it's a big part of what we talk about when we talk about people here. I'm talking about representations of Sacajawea, and, the myth and romanticized ization of Sacajawea. This book is a huge part of that.
As time continued and we got closer to the bicentennial, more and more, again, information about Sacajawea, stories, books were published. And in 2003, Treasury issued The Sacajawea a dollar. It featured Sacagawea and her son Pumpy, and Randy'L He-dow Teton was the model for the coin. Randy'L He-dow Teton is the only living model of a U.S coin that I know of.
And, she is Shoshone Bannock, and it's very neat that she is still alive and that she lives down, on the Fort Hall reservation in Idaho. In 2001, president Bill Clinton awarded Sacajawea, the status of honorary sergeant in the regular U.S. Army. That 1910 statue I talked about that sat in front of the North Dakota Capitol?
A replica was created of it in 2003, and it that replica was given to the US Capitol Visitor Center by the state of North Dakota to commemorate the beginning of the expedition's bicentennial. So it is one of two statues representing North Dakota as part of the U.S statutory haul. And as you can see, her name is spelled quite differently than we spell it here in Idaho.
And also pronounce Sacagawea. And that's, that is the Hidatsa, the traditional Hidatsa spelling of her name. And that means for women in the her daughter language. In 2006, another ship was named for Sacajawea for the US. In US, Sacajawea And it was a Lewis and Clark, Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship.
And it still remains in active duty today. That brings us to the Sacajawea Center here in Salmon. The Sacajawea Center was established during the bicentennial. Mike Crosby played an integral part in the creation of the Sacajawea Center, as well as the the Roseanne, Rosina and Emma George and other Arikara people and other community members here in Salmon.
Roseanne, Rosina and Emma George also had some of the ideas and the visions of what the center would be. Today, our mission is to, acknowledge and honor the dedication. Bannock people, the Lewis and Clark expedition, western frontier life and the natural environment and our statue is again a representation of what Sacajawea could have looked like.
And it was by, the, sculptor A. Vincent Talbot. And it shows Sacajawea with her hair long and flowing, as in the journals, Lewis had the one of the only mentions he had of the, of what the academia looked like. They had long, flowing hair, and she was carrying Pumpy in her arms. February 11th is Pumpy's birthday, so we're about three days away from when he would be born in 1805 and become the youngest member of the expedition.
So, you may have noticed that throughout this talk, I have said Sacajawea. And why I say Sacajawea is that here at the center? Her people say they I guide, they say Sacajawea, and they spell it with the J. So as part of our mission here at the center to honor their knowledge and their history, that is why we choose to say Sacajawea.
And with that, I will close it and open it up for questions.
Yeah.
Doug Exton: Thank you for the wonderful presentation, both of you. The first question I have is, why has her memory lasted decades compared to some of the other people on the team besides Lewis and Clark?
Suzy Avery: That is a good question. I guess I'll take a stab at it. And then I also let might take a stab at it. And I'll have you repeat, if you don't mind repeating the question. Doug. Oh, of course.
Doug Exton: Yeah. Why is her memory lasted decades versus some of the other people on the expedition team beyond Lewis and Clark themselves?
Suzy Avery: Yeah, I think, it my opinion, one of the reasons I think her memory has lasted is that, she was the only woman on the expedition. And I also think, her role on the expedition and what she did, what she accomplished has, you know, really struck a chord with a lot of people on how, you know, she was only 18, about 18 years old.
And that is young. I, you know, I think of it some days I think about what she accomplished by 18 years old, and I think of myself when I was 18 years old, and there's no way I could have done what she did, no matter what year it was, there's no way. So her her perseverance, her strength, and that she was a woman, I think just really sticks with people of why she's important.
And I'll. I'll let Mike, answer that as well. Okay.
Mike Crosby: Oh, yes, of course I, I agree. And what we found during the bicentennial, when we were reading a lot of Lewis and Clark visitors, was that she was a great way to to draw women in who might not be particularly interested in a three year, camping trip for guys, and also children. There are there are more books about her than any other member of the expedition, and most of them are, written for children.
Doug Exton: As historians, what is the role of indigenous peoples oral histories in correcting or altering the history that we teach? The, person to ask the question also says, for example, Rose in Abrahamson, if I said that correctly, shares are very different shares, very different information about Sacajawea. Carbonneau and .... I probably said that very incorrectly.
Suzy Avery: Yeah. The, indigenous peoples oral traditions play an important role in this. The story of Sacajawea a the story of Lewis and Clark, as well as a larger American history. And to me, one of the important things is that we not only acknowledge that they're there, but we take them as history. You know, I feel like a lot of historians, we can get bundled up in a well, if it's not written down, it's not history.
And that is not true. Oral histories are just as relevant and just as important, and in my opinion, in some ways are even more so and important. You know, who better to hear the history and the information about someone from than from their descendants or people of that same band. So oral to me, oral traditions and oral history play an important role.
And I think as we continue to move on and realize and recognize and acknowledge the role of, oral histories in, American history and oral history, we will see different sides and a different story emerge about Lewis and Clark and Sacajawea. As Rosanne Abrahamson does--she does have, her her presentations are fantastic. And we've had her here at the center to speak.
She is a descendant of Sacajawea, and those oral histories that she is so willing to share with us and to promote are just, so relevant and so important. And it's just a good reminder, I think, for me and all people, too, that we must incorporate them when we talk about it. And one of the things when we talk about her death here at the center, though most historians say she died in 1812, we do acknowledge the 1884 death because of the oral history and the oral traditions of the Eastern Shoshone, the Comanches and other, people who say she is buried there.
To me, you can't you know, I don't know, I wasn't there and 1812 or 1884. So I tried to acknowledge, all of it as, fact.
Doug Exton: And then how are her descendants and fellow tribal members, involved to ensure respectful portrayals of Sacajawea? You know, I know you just mentioned that you've worked with some of the members of the academia, some of her descendants. But I wondering if you could expand on that a little bit more.
Suzy Avery: Yes. So at the center, we, the Roseanne, and her sisters, Rosina and Emma, were an integral role of getting the center established and getting it started and designing it. And today, they still as well as other members of the Agaidika people, they play a role in helping us. What? With what? What are we going?
What are we portray here? What are we talking about? I, you know, I, I got a lot to Roseanne and Roseanne and Emma on, What what I'm doing and hoping that, I'm doing the right thing and I'm portraying their the story, their history in and correct way. We also work with the language and cultural preservation department of the Shoshone.
Bannock tribe to, ensure that, you know, we're we're telling an accurate history, and we're portraying that history here. We are working on redoing, the old police department that was located here on site and turning into an interpretive center. And so I've been working with, that department on the signage and interpretive information in there. And, they've it's a tremendous help.
And, I mean, I just am so thankful that they are willing to to be a part of what goes on out here at the Sacajawea Center. And, every August, the tribe does come back and we have the athletic gathering. They have a memorial run up, up Lemhi Pass to remember those who were forcibly removed. And then here at the center, we have, dancing and drumming and, different events.
And it's a really to me, it's so important to not only that they that they're coming home, that this, you know, that we remember and recognize that this is their home and that they're coming home to this, that, but that also that they're willing to come back and, allow us to be a part of of what they they're doing now.
Doug Exton: I think that's wonderful. And I really love, you know, hearing all those stories about, you know, only the collaboration, but, you know, the effort that you all are making and other organizations are making to be, you know, super mindful and make that effort to include, you know, indigenous communities and telling their own histories and stories.
And in your opinion, what would you say are the greatest errors? In the book "Sacajawea", by Waldo. I know you said it's all. It's mostly fiction. But if you had to just, like, pick like 1 or 2 that were kind of the, you know, heart.
Suzy Avery: I guess, I don't know. That's a that's a tough, I guess I would say like to me, I guess when I guess if more of a story, of to me when it was like, oh, this book, has some representation that could is somewhat harmful is we had a visitor, to the center come in and, you know, say I read this book and, you know, she's really it's really inspired me to learn about, it learn about Sacajawea.
And in fact, I'm teaching a course right now on, Sacajawea, with this book and, we the my one of my volunteers who was working in the interpretive center at the time said, well, you know, that book's not accurate. That's not the story of Sacajawea, as far as we know. You know, again, and that's not the what we know.
And, and this woman was so upset because she had based her whole class that she was teaching around this book and around that the fact that the book was, in fact, historically accurate and that everything in it was, the true history of Sacajawea. And so it to me, that's just like an example of like, well, it's just overall it's just kind of a, you know, it's hard.
It's hard when you, you to take something like that at face value and say, yes, this is the history of Sacajawea, especially when there's so much we don't know. And there's again, oral traditions and all of that's coming becoming more to the head. We just. Yeah, it's, it's a little rambling answer, but it's kind of hard.
But I can tell you what in that book is not good.
Doug Exton: Yeah, I totally get that. It is a very slippery slope that it's very easy to kind of fall down that, that route, you know, obviously, and it's the known where Pumpyis buried. Many tramps.
Suzy Avery: Yes. And Mike shake his head. So I will let him answer this question. I know to. But Mike, to give a better I mean, I know this question. I think I know.
Mike Crosby: We're we're interchanging ... here if we go back and forth. Yeah. He's buried in in southeast Oregon, a place called Inskeep Station. He was on his way. He was about 61 or 62. He was on his way to Montana to to mine gold, and, came down with some sort of respiratory illness and passed away and is buried there, and, and you can, see his grave, the Abraham, the George sisters that that, Swiss has been talking about, went there many years ago and they had, I wasn't there buried.
It was really nice ceremony, to, to commemorate, that this ancestor of theirs.
Doug Exton: And the next question, speaking of burials, some people believe Sacajawea was born in present day Montana. Is there any, you know, possible truth to this? I know you mentioned, that it does seem based off of oral histories and stuff, that she is buried on the Wind River reservation.
Suzy Avery: Yeah, well, that's one. Yeah. Oral history. She was buried on the wind River. I, I'm looking at Mike, and I don't I have not heard that yet that she had been buried in Montana or. I'm sorry, born in Montana. Everything I've heard is that she was born here in the land in what is now known as the Lemhi Valley.
But we'll never know for sure. But we'll never know for sure, as Mike says. Yeah.
Doug Exton: And then, in your opinion, do you think Sacajawea was, romanticized or romanized, as much as Pocahontas? Because I know they are different time, you know, time periods, you know, unfortunately, the Disney movie, I feel like did do a lot of harm to Pocahontas and the public knowledge of her.
Suzy Avery: Yes, I would say, you know, that's a tough one because, yeah, with that Disney movie, yes. Pocahontas was incredibly romanticized. And that story was I mean, what you learn in that movie versus what actually, it's a factual what we know of Pocahontas. I would say, yes, academia was and is continues to be incredibly romanticized.
And, you know, one of one of our goals here at the center is to tell what history we do know, to tell, and to, you know, for me, it's important when when I talk about Sacajawea, you know, it's important to talk about her and her contributions and what she did. But for me, it's more so to tell the larger history of the academia, Shoshone people and that history, which is the history of this valley.
So, yeah, I would say she's a that's a tough one. And I guess it would probably depend on on who you talk to, you on who's who's romanticized more. I think she's as as much, maybe even more so, for adults. Like, I feel like Pocahontas is romanticized, especially for children. And I would say Sacajawea is, but I would say even more so for adults.
Sacajawea is ...
Doug Exton: And transitioning into, you know, Lemhi Valley, I was wondering if you would be able to talk about the fun exhibit there you guys have been working on, you know, plants and animals of one high valley, if that's okay. So.
Suzy Avery: Yeah. So, so we, so it's kind of the so the statue is there, a little bit about a background. It's a 71 acre park, where owned and operated by the City of Salmon. And we do have a small interpretive center. And, also on site was a building that was the original home of the Condor family, who, some of the ground the city had purchased, the land from.
And, that home was then the original office of the secretary, a center, and then became the home of the Salmon Police Department. And in December 2019, the Sacajawea Center regained ownership of that building. And so since then, we've been working to remodel it and create an interpretive, exhibit to go inside that looks at, who else you know, who calls this this place home?
And because our, our interpretive center, what we found is it's a fantastic interpretive center. And it talks about Sacajawea on the Agaidika and, the Lewis and Clark expedition. But what we found was we are finding more questions. We are getting more questions about, who is who is tin doi? What what was more information about the 1907 removal?
More. What more? What about the Lemhi Pass? What's the significance of Lemhi Pass? What's the significance of, you know, this? So we thought, well, what better way than to expound on kind of this more information. And so this exhibit is looking at, Lemhi Pass, history, some history about Lemhi Pass. More information about ... and the Agaidika, as well as taking a look at the plants and animals who call, this, this valley home because we get a lot of questions about what native plants grow here, what animals are native here.
So kind of trying to connect this idea of like, the whole because, that, that was an original home. The theme of that kind of whole exhibit is home. It's a space of home. So that's kind of what we're playing, playing off of. So that's what we're working on. It's I'm really excited about it.
You know, some of the, fun things we have or we have, you know, we're going to talk in there about the Bitterroot and what, you know, the what was the uses of the Bitterroot? What are, traditional uses of bitterroot? The chemists, and some other plants? I don't want to give it all away because I want you exactly to see this in it when it's time, but,
Yeah. So that's what we're working on. And then the. And the animals, you know, one of the things we have a couple, taxidermied animals down in the interpretive center, and kids love them, and they love to pet them and ask you questions about. We have a bear and a raccoon and a wolf. And so, you know, what about this animal?
Did it live here? You know, questions. So with the animals, we're looking to do some interpretive, and more interpretive, an interactive exhibit for especially aimed at kids to kind of, you know, get them excited and to remember the Sacajawea Center and to come back here and to keep learning and keep exploring the history that we have here.
Doug Exton: I think that's wonderful. And I definitely, obviously want to be able to let you talk about all the wonderful work you get to play outside of just recognizing Secretary in the tribe. And, another question from one of the audience members. So actually seems to have become an archetype for the helpmate in the, quote, good minority. How can she be rescued from this cultural baggage?
Suzy Avery: It's a good question. You know, I'm not sure I have the answer. I'm not sure the right person to give that answer. You know, I when I, I'm not an expert on Sacajawea and nor am I indigenous. So I feel like what I, what I say is, you know, it's my what I know what I've been taught, what I've learned here, but I, I feel like, you know, for that kind of, for that what we need to do.
How do we rescue Sacajawea? We are from a good minority. How do we do that? Well, I think the bigger issue is we need to be creating spaces for indigenous people. That talk we need to have, more, more, you know, going to the different tribes and saying, what is your history? What is your, you know, as well as long as it's and but first we have to build those relationships, right?
We can't just go and ask and ask and ask. We need to go. Build those relationships and ask those, people, you know, people if they're willing to share that history, if they're willing to be a part of this. You know, and I think rescuing her from the good minority is the first thing is we need to acknowledge that, the our guide were forcibly removed from their homeland, that, you know, Fort Hall is not their traditional homelands that, you know, and that they are not, I and I look at my to make sure they are not federally recognized.
The Agaidika are not federally recognized as their own tribe. So, you know, to me, yeah, it's a big question and it's a good question. And I think we all, we all need to work together to kind of reframe our mindsets and get out of the Euro American. You know, this is what I know. This is the history I've been taught or how and instead not and not like Diane, who's framing Sacajawea, in her own, you know, copper maiden kind of mindset to get into what are who, you know, incorporating and learning, relearning what we know.
Doug Exton: And then, the next question is, how have the different movies and portrayals of Sacajawea, kind of, you know, throughout time in European at least impacted, you know, the view of her people's culture, you know, because at least from my understanding, it almost seems like she is somewhat of an outlier. So, you know, kind of in that same breath as Pocahontas in terms of at least in the pop culture world, you know, that true, like call out indigenous person.
Suzy Avery: Yeah.
Doug Exton: But at the same time, I feel like when with them being called out, they're somewhat being stripped of that native culture. It's more of the person in the role that they helped. You know, the Europeans or the, you know, white Americans rather than the culture that they also came from.
Suzy Avery: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. I mean, I guess, like again, dei that description of Sacajawea where, you know, she's essentially she's whitening her techniques for her own purposes and, you know. Yeah, I think that, portrayals of her people and film and movies, I, you know, again, it's I would say from my opinion, I don't I don't and I'll ask my cast once to speak on this too.
I don't I don't see them. You know, it's Sacajawea at the young Shoshone. It's what you see. And it's never I. I don't see a lot. I mean, I think you're seeing more scholarship obviously, today. Yeah. Okay. Yes. She was a member of this band. And what do we know? What is their history? What is their culture?
But for a long time, it was like she was the solo individual, like Sacajawea or like, I'm sorry, like Pocahontas removed almost from her people. And you know what? It was, you know, I yeah, I it's a hard, a hard one, but it's a good one and I've one I'm going to keep pondering on just, you know.
Yeah. How how are they portrayed. And I just don't think you see much mention of the act. I think my opinion in most I mean, I in a lot of literature, it's her on her own. You know, they're not talking about what a lot of people were. Didn't talk about what was her what what what did her culture teacher, what did her people, what was their role?
You know, some of that, it's a little rambly, but I yeah, I just it's tough. It's. Yeah, that's a tough, idea. I'm not sure how. How do you know? And I guess for me, it's like, well, what do we do at this, actually? And what do we do? What do we make sure we we need to make sure that we're telling her that, you know, that history here that we're not just focusing on Sacajawea, that we're focusing on the bigger.
And then, you know, I guess a good example is Toby, who was the interpreter who went with, guide who led Lewis and Clark through this valley and lost trail past, you know, do most people know who Toby is? I would say no. You know, we talk about Sacajawea. Yeah, but he played an important role in the expedition.
You know, about the Nez Perce, about the Mandan, Hidatsa. There were all of these players who helped that expedite and, you know, like we tell people here, Lewis and Clark would have never made it if it weren't for the indigenous nations out here. And I firmly believe that. And and so I think, you know, how is her culture portrayed?
I don't think it really is. It's almost like you said, she's a stand alone.
Doug Exton: And are you are Mike able to speak about secretary, his personal reasons for going on the trip, if she had any?
Suzy Avery: I will let Mike if he's willing to take over. I've been hogging the mic.
Mike Crosby: Well, I think primarily, as I mentioned earlier, was just the ability to to finally, have that to go home, to see the home that she loved and, and the friends and family that, that she had left behind. And a caller to that question would be, okay, now that she was home, why did she leave? She could just go hide into Lewis.
And Clark left, and I was doing a program here once, and and there were a couple of Shoshone women in the audience. And so I said, ladies, if you don't mind, I'm going to hand that question to you. What do you think? And they told me that even today, if a Shoshone marries out of the tribe, then they go with her husband and so that they're still accustomed today.
But I, I also kind of like to think in terms of, as a person. I think, why can't we say that? She was just agreed. And it's as an explorer or as an adventurer and what else on that expedition? The chance to to see things that she never had a chance to see, and, achieve that, that personal satisfaction of doing that.
Suzy Avery: So.
Doug Exton: When I was wondering if either of you can kind of expand on the difference between, the Shoshone tribes and the academic, you know, obviously they are completely different cultures. So it is hard to do that direct comparison. But also why the academia is not recognized by the federal government. While the Shoshone are.
If that's an easy thing to get into without all of the, you know, political nuance, obviously.
Suzy Avery: Yeah. And I see Mike shaking his head. I don't know if you want to. Do you want to address I if you want to go I know that know we're going back and forth.
Mike Crosby: Now, I think that goes back to the, what the bureaucrats in the late 19th century. And it seems to me, based upon what I've read, that they really just considered the, the and Shoshone as just a, not a separate tribe, but just a branch of, of the Northern Shoshone. And so it was a bureaucratic convenience just to get all those people together, and not realizing how different they were.
The Agaidika and the Shoshone have had a century old struggle to achieve that recognition that they aren't the same, they do have some differences, between between the other bands of Shoshone.
Doug Exton: All right. It looks like we don't have any more questions coming in. So I just wanted to say thank you again to both of you for, you know, all the information, all the work that you do. And again, the wonderful presentation and, you know, again, just circling all the way back to the wonderful work that you all do at the center, you know, and providing that space for, you know, her descendants and the tribe to tell their stories.
Suzy Avery: Well, thank you. And thank you for having us today. We appreciate the opportunity to to be on here. And I'm thankful thankful for Mike. And thank you to Mike for being here. And a fantastic historian. And, we would. Yeah. Hope everybody comes out and visits and, thank you again.
Doug Exton: Oh, it looks like someone's already planning a road trip, so you might have some people say.
Suzy Avery: Oh, right.