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Latah County Oral History Collection

Remembering Latah County and Idaho Life at the turn of the 20th century

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Date: December 02, 1974 Interviewer: Sam Schrager

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SAM SCHRAGER: I was thinking to start with that maybe you'd tell some general background about how the settlement of this area and the people that came here were like and related to what happened other places in the Northwest.

LOLA GAMBLE CLYDE: All right, I'll start in on the piece about how this fits in to the general settlement of the Northwest. And that's all right. That's a good way to introduce It because it pinpoints it in history for people who never heard of Moscow, Idaho before. Then I'll come down to these different stories about how Moscow was named. Do you want me to do that?

SAM: And I think perhaps mention^fie first people that came through here and what traces they left. That's very interesting too.

LC: Um hum, urn hum.Yeah fine.

SAM: So go ahead.

LC: Well, the history of our community,Sam, parallels the history of Pacific followed by the fur seekers, the whole Northwest. We too had the coming of the explorers filbwed by the great soul seekers, followed by the great gold seekers, followed by some form of temporary government, and then lastly followed by the home seekers--the people who would stay and build the churches and the homes and the schools of the community. We know that in 1805 and 1806 Lewis and Clark passed this way. And their diary tells us that they camped along the Clearwater River, and that their hunters ranged for about a hundred miles. So beyond a doubt they came to Tatkinmah , which was what this lovely valley was called by the Nez Perce Indians^meaning "the place of the little spotted deer." Here they hunted for the deer in the winter and dug camas here in the summer. These were followed by the fur seekers. And we know that Donald MacKenzie built a fur trading post along the north bank of the Clearwater River. And undoubtedly his fur trappers cam up the Tenatpanep which is the south Palouse and Paradise Creek looking for the silver fur of the beaver. And we can see the beaver yet digging along those creeks in the early spring. They left no written record of having passed this way. And we know/die great soul seeker, Henry Harmon Spalding rode this way from tapwai, the place of the white butterfly, the place of many springs, twenty-five miles out of Spokane. But he drew no map and no where in his diary does he comment about having ridden this way, Sut it's in a direct line and beyond a doubt he passed this way.

Following the soul seekers came of course the first white men to visit this territory and leave a written record of having passed this way. At that was Isaac Stevens, the first governor of Washington Territory. And on May 24th, 1855 he met in the lush meadows of Walla Walla to trade with the Northwest Indians. He came directly from there through this country. And with him was a great German artist and cartographer, Gustavus Sohon and he drew amap of the way they came And they wrote ln their diaries about having passed this way. We know that about the west side of Paradise Creek, on the 20th of June, they arrived there and camped overnight. And Isaac Infill Stevens wrote in his report:"You could look away to the west, and the ground was just carpeted with a myriad of flowers." they stayed overnight and followed down the slope of Paradise Ridge to cross the Tanatpan the South Palouse about at the place where the Chinese gardens now stand. And he wrote then in his diary that along the banks of the creek there were six hundred ledges of Nez PerceSencamped. And that the camas was so thick that the women in three or four days could dig enough camas roots to last them all winter long. And and this would of course be Indian Hills and University Height:— grazed two thousand head of Nez Perce ponies. And of course among them would be many of the lovely Appaloosa horses for which Moscow was to become international headquarters. And he a^wrote in his diary at this time: "Here I was astonished at the luxuriousness of the grass and at the richness of the soil!" Following the coming of Isaac Stevens we have the coming of the gold seekers. And we know that g^n. Pierce passed this way on the way to Canal Gulch where gold was discovered in 1860. He was lead by Jane Silcott;who was the daughter of old chief Timothy.The E. D.Pierce party had come by way of Walla Walla, had camped overnight with Timothy^at the Red Wolf Campground. Here the Indians told them that it wasn't safe to go through the Nez Perce country, ffiey were resenting the coming of so many white people. So Pierce asked if there was any way around this country. And Timothy's daughter, little Jane later became Jane Silcott, seventeen at the time, said well she knew cl way around and she would lead the company. So coming up Steptoe Canyon, they came through halfway between Colton and Uniontowny and came over as far as the iouth Palouse. And they followed the iouth Palouse through what is now Troy, down to Kendrick, up over the Leland country to Canal Gulchjwhere gold was discovered. And this of course meant wagons west ^henthe cry of gold went ou^. Almost overnight, Lewisto^ which had just been a meeting place for the Nez Perce Indians^ became a tent city of ten thousand people This of course had to lead to some form of of temporary government.

In 1863, Idaho became a territory. And this of course was followed by the coming of the first white settlers to our community. There had been cattle people here, but they had only been temporarily; there'd been gold seekers through, there'd been mining people who set up temporary shacks. In 1870 came Tom who was the first white man to settle in Latah County, down along the Thorn Creek way, almost on the Washington side. He set up the first homestead. In 71 came the first covered wagons in to the of Moscow. In that first group were Lieuallen and his family, the Haskins family Mrs. Lieuallen was a Haskins) the George Washington Tomers-, came Bill Frazier and his family, Cameron and his brother. Daniel came that same year. The William Taylors--he was considered one of the founding fathers of Moscow-settled out along the South Palouse where the Latah County Nursing Home now stands. He soon established a large garden and planted out trees. And later wagon trains spoke often of having stayed with the William Taylor people while they looked for other homesteads to settle in this community. There are many stories about how Moscow got itl name and one thing about folklore-there are as many ways telling it as there are people to do the telling. But we do know that the Indians had called it Tatkinmah meaning "the place of the young deer." The first settlers noticed what good food the camas roots were for the Indian people. They were nourishing and they grew fat on it. They thought it might be a good place to raise hogs. So many of the men brought in hogs in the early days, and because the hogs too prospered and grew fat on the camas bulbs, they started calling the place Hog Heaven. Weli with the coming of the settlers wives and the wagon trains in to the vicinity they thought Hog Heaven was a poor address. You couldn't very well wiite borne and tell 'em you were living in Hog Heaven. So the women suggested-that the name be changed at least to Paradise. And Paradise Hill and Paradise Creek and Paradise Villa still bear that name. And there are many other stories about how it was named. And one is that Asbury Almon Lieuallen, who was considered one of Moscow's first settlers.had a cow that got out at night and ate up one of the neighbor^ flower gardens. And the lady was very upset about it the next morning. But Mr. Lieuallen said, "Well now you can't blame it on me because it was Ma's cow that did that. So the name became Moscow. And the other story is that some of the founding fathers were sitting in a barn trying to think up what they would call the new settlement and the cow stuck her head through the window. Somebody said, "Well, there's a cow with moss on her back, so we'fl name thtplace Moscow."But those I thiik were just folklore.

SAM: What about the story that said there wereRussian settlers, wasn't there one that said that too?

LC: Yes. Sone people thought that there might have been Russian settlers, But I held. Brosnan who has an authority on Idaho history research it one time, and we could find no Russian names on any of the tax records or in any of the ear ly day voting records in the county. So we finally wrote to the son of the man who had the name changed, his name was Mr. Neff. And his father had been postmaster when the name was changed from Paradise Valley to Moscow. And he said that his father, Mr. Neff, had come from a little town called Moscow in Paradise Valley in western Pennsylvania. And he had moved to a place called Moscow in Iowa. He thought that his father had called it Moscow, Idaho, remembering the two towns where he had once lived. And that seems a logical solution to me^because Moscow was very much in the news in the early part, in the early years of the 1800s. It was the time of Napoloon's historic retreat through the snow and the blizzards of the Russian country. And there are about sixteen towns altogether in the United States named Moscow, and most of them wernamed for Moscow, Russia in the early part of the 1800's. (Break) Father Cataldo writes J in some of his papers that he and Henry Harmon Spalding camped at a spring north of where Moscow is, but Henry Harmon Spalding never mentions it.

SAM: Do you think that he ever did any more than just ride through here on his way to someplace else?

LC: I think not. I don't think there was any real cause, although this would have been a good resting place like overnight', but I don't suppose there were enough people here to stop and talk religion to. nobody here.

SAM: How did they establish the place where they put the cross up on Highway 95 as being the place that ; they stopped? Do you know how they ever figured that out?

LC: Well, there*8 a spring out there in what they call Section 9. And I think that that was how they did it. There's a spring there, and in Father Cataldo's papers, he wrote that they stopped at a spring and stayed overnight and would visit. So I think they thought that the spring there on Section 9 would be in about a direct route from Spalding to Spokane. But the cross on the highway--it was put out on the highway because there's no use in marking a spring that's way off the highway where no one can see it. The cross and the marker were pi on the highway where people could. and know that this was the general location of the place where they had met.

SAM: Can you tell me about the Indian trail itself that came through here?

LC: Well, there were two great Indian trails that ran this way that had been used from pre-historic times. And of course the one came up from Coyote Grade, came up through the Genesee country, came up on the east side of Paradise Butte which would be. what we call through the Blaine country, and came down about -where the Red Wolf marker is. And that was the greater Nez Perce frail. Now the Red Wolf Trail came up from the Red Wolf Campground;which was at Alpowa. And that was Old Timothy's home; and he was Spalding's first Christian convert. And he called this place Alpowa because it was derived from words that sounded that way that meant "the place of Sabbath rest." Old Timothy had early adopted the ways of the missionaries, and he wouldn't let anyone work on Sunday So he called his place Alpwa, meaning the "place of Sabbath rest." thrtftigtt And the Red Wolf Trail ran from '.h there up what is now called Steptoe Canyon, and it: ;came up throuigt'horn Creek. It crossed the divide and then skirted the west edge of Paradise Ridge. And there was a spring there at the west edge, and it's still called the Steven's Spring^because here is where the map shows that Isaac TngallStevens with his young thirteen year old son, Hazard, and his crew of twenty-two mountain men and packers camped overnight. And the trail then followed on down across the Tenatpanep and went on out to the east 'where it joined th greater Nez Perce Trail. And general vicinity maybe a mile from the actual meeting place of the two trails was. Anyway the schoolchildren put it there to mark the meeting place of the Nez Perce Trail with the Red Wolf Trail.

SAM: Roughly where would that be now?

LC: Well, you know where there was a little school over there called the Mt. Tomer School. And there's a marker put there by the Worthwhile Club. And they put it there because the school children could see it and appreciate their history} rather than over farther along the iouth Palouse Creek,which would have been about a mile to the north. And beyond a doubt the Indians would go that way.

SAM: Did the first settlers that came into this country use those trails?

LC: 0h yes I think so. The Indian trails across the whole United States were the forerunners of the great national highways. They were the forerunners that the railroads cross the United States.And of Indians had followed the game trails, the early game trails of the Northwest.

SAM: Does the Nez Perce irail follow roughly the course that 95 takes going north

LC: Yes, I think so. I think you could say that. Although they would take the short cut right up over the Lewiston Bluffs instead of riding down straight the river,they just came/up the on across.

SAM: Well, what about evidence of Lewis and Clark actually having been in this county? How close do you think they really came? Do you think they actually were up on the Potlatch Creek and in that area?

LC: Well, nobody knows. They drew no map and left no written record of having been here, but we just think if they were out hunting that it's quite likely that their hunters and trappers ranged this far. But they left no written record to prove that.

SAM: Well, what about Indian use of this country? What kind of use was there and how much do you think there was?

LC: Well, we have the written record of Isaac IngallStevens that there were about six hundred lodges camped here. And he was the first white mop. that left any record of having been here. 4nd then it was in June, and of course the camas would just be going out of bloom. And you could easily find the bulbs. And they wereigging the bulbs and beyond atioubt they had come here for many,many years, And the anthropologists and archeologists that had passed this way and have studied it say that beyond a doubt they used this country as a hunting ground and as a camas digging ground. And they he^eleft their names on the land. The name of our county is Latah. And that comes from two Nez Perce words meaning "the piace ofpestle and pine." So we know t there must have been many pestle rocks here that they gathered to do their grinding with. And of course we have all seen the evidence, and the evidence still stands of the pine trees, so I think that was a very fitting name for it. Potlatch of course, meant the place for the exchange of gifts. And the very earliest settlers tell about how the Indians would come this far on the way to meet with the Coeur d'Alenes. And this was anice grassy place where many cattle co\ild be fed in the summer aid the horses could feed. And when the Indians went to any of their big meetings they'd take their horses along to fatten them up.If it was on a fur trading mission they all took many, many more horses than they could possibly heed to pack or ride. But they took them along so they could graze and get fat in the summertime on all the rich bunch grass. And this was a favorite place to meet and race their horses and meet with the Coeur d'Alene Indians and the Spokane Indians. And there havebeen evidences that the archeologists could Cite to you of them having been here.

SAM: I guess I've heard in the north end of the county that Coeur d'Alene Indians were around the Potlatch- Princeton area. . .

LC: Oh yes.

SAM: So I suppose that that may meanSthat this was a place where they more or less came together.

LC: Yes, I think that we could safely say that. Because the very first settlers in the community tell about meeting the young Indians and riding horses. Young George Tomer, who was George Washington Tomer's son,often told about how he raced his horses withtthe Indian boys along the Tanatpanep anci wnat good times they hm together.

SAM: In 1877 when the Nez Perce War broke out, what have you heard about the fort that was constructed here? About what the people here did? About that war?

LC: Yes, I knew some of the people who were in the fort. Of course, I wasn't born then.but I have heard Lilly Lieuallen, who was one of the very first white children born in this vicinity. T heard many of them tell about how they built.,There was more than one fort built. There was a fort built many up toward the Ursuline Academy and the DAR had marked thatl years ago while some of the original people were still alive. And I can remember seeing the logs of that fort scattered around in the empty lottwhen I was a very young girl going to school. And they thought that the Chief Joseph uprising--they might come this way to meet with the Coeutr d'Alenes. But through the efforts of Father Cataldo and Father Josett and some of the other they Catholic missions from the north, persuaded the Couer d'Alenes to not go on the warpath, and they didn't rise to help Chief Joseph and the Nez Perces. And there was another fort built in the south edge of Moscow, down on what would be the Jimmy Deakin land, down about where the oil comparies are along Sweet venue. There was a fort put up there too. And right out here in our own community there's a high hill down in back of the Ed Snow place, and I heard him tell that come in and the log stockade was still on top of that hill. People thought it was a high hill, and if they put up a stockade there they could see if the Indians were coming!from the south. They could see them many miles off and could all get into the stockade. So those are three of the early forts that I've heard talked about.

SAM: How seriously did they take the situation? Did they stay in these stockades day after day?

LC: Well, I think maybe the one in Moscow, the Howard Fort, probably they did. But the one down here on the Snow land, I don't think they really did any staying in it; they just put it up as a safeguard in case they needed it.

SAM: Did you hear any stories from the oldtimers about what it was like? And how they felt? I imagine that they would be pretty young at the time-- but during this period of time when they were in the stockades?

LC: Yes, they were very frightened. And the men made quite a thing of it. Some of them were men home from the Civil War so they sort of elected captains and so on. and they stood guard. They had rifles and that sort of thing.. And I think some of them were kind of playing soldier, you know.

SAM: I was curious about how the people would manage to live? They'd have to and a place to sleep have food and watTer's and all that in the stockade. I imagine it would be a very difficult situation for people.

LC: Well, I think it probably was. I think it was. Some of them had to go out and get food and bring it in to them and so on, but. . .

SAM: Do you imagine that this meant that the whole town of Moscow was actually living in the stockade during that time?

LC: there weren't very many people in Moscow at that time. Yes, I think there were quite a few people there. I would think maybe all the people that would be in the immediate vicinity of what was Moscow probably went to the stockade.

SAM: I wonder how long thatjwhdle scare lasted? When the people finally decided it was all right? Would it have been after Joseph was out of the country entirely; do you think?

LC: Well, I just don't remember what it was. . .

SAM: He went into Montana, didn't he?

LC: Yes, yes. And that was the last of October that he surrendered at the Battle of the Bear Paw. And I should think that they got out of there before winter came on, myself.

SAM: Um hum. I read someplace, maybe it was in the Bunchgrass Historian or someplace else I read something about the Coeur d'Alenes trying to assure the local people that they were not going to be in the war. Do you remember anything about that?

LC: Yes I think there was. T think there was something to that effect that they were going to try and help protect the white people. The early Jesuit missionaries had had a very strong influence over the Co-ear'd'Alenes. And I think they were very fundamental in helping hold them from coming down and joining up.

SAM: So, in fact, the early settlers foere - weren't in danger even though they believed that they were perhaps!

LC: No, I don't think they were really in any dager at all.

SAM: Were measures that were taken here taken in I Idaho at the same time? Do you know?

LC: Well, I think maybe out around Idaho City and that country maybe there were. I just couldn't answer that.

SAM: What about the influence of Spalding on the Nez Perce? Do you feel that his influence was very strong on people in so far as the way that they felt about white people? Was there a division in the tribe that. . .?

LC: Oh yes. I think there's always been quite a division in the tribe between the Christians and, what they called the heathens, that weren't followers of Spalding. I think there was always quite a division.

SAM: And then Joseph was the heathen part of the Nez Perce in. . .?

LC: Well, old Chief Joseph had been one of Henry Harmon Spalding's very first convertsr Timothy and Joseph. And old Chief Joseph had been very devouty but he loved the beautiful Wallowas. And dying, he laid the charge at young Chief Joseph's door; He said, "I want to be buried at Lake Wallowa^" nd his bones rest there today. But he said, "You must never sell the bones of your father and mother. You must fight for the beautiful Wallowas." And all the tribes knew that young Chief Joseph, who was really a peace-loving man, that he would dig up the war hatchet and take to the warpath in defense of the beautiful Wallowas. And while the Treaty of 1855 gave the beautiful Wallowas to old Chief Joseph and all his descendants, the Treaty of 1863 took it away from them again and forced him and all his followers onto the reservation. And old Chief Joseph came out of the Wallowas and met with the white people, Miles and Howard at Lapwai for the signing of the Treaty of 1863. And while he was seated at the tablekmong all the brass and the braid of the United States Army, he came in with his braids and his blanket. But under the blanket he carried the white man's covenant, the white man's promise of fair dealing and of the brotherhood of man. And as he sat there listening, he realized what was nppening--that they were taking the Wallowas away from him and

(End of Side A)

LC: And Henry Harmon Spalding had given to him-uhe had this. . .

SAM: He had the Book of Matthew.

LC: He had the Book of Matthew under his blanket. And this was the white man's convenant, the promise of equality and the brotherhood of man, ana he sat there listening, and he saw they were going to put him on the reservation and take his beautiful Wallowas from him, out from under the blanket he drew the covenant and he ripped the pages out of it and tore it into he thousands of pieces and threw them in the faces of Howard and Miles and the people assembled there «t the table. And he walked out to symbolize that that was just nothing but a piece of paper, just scraps of paper that you could tear up and throw away. And Henry Harmon Spalding wrote in his diary: "Old Chief Joseph haS gone back to Egypt." He probably preferred the savages to the kind of Christianity they were exhibiting there at the treaty table.

SAM: So he denounced the treaty and was not a part of the Treaty of 1863.

LC: Yes. No, no, no, no, no. He had nothing to do with it. And he walked out on them, and let them know It by throwing the torn up scraps of paper from the Bible in the faces of the people sitting there. So that/one of the great dramatic moments of history, all right.

SAM: Then what was it that happened in 1877 that brought the war about?

LC: Well, I suppose it was the forcing of them onto the reservation. They were going to force all of the Chief Joseph band from the Wallowas to come onto the reservation. Old Chief Joseph was dead by that time, and young Chief Joseph was leading them together with his young brother, And wnen Chief Joseph said, "He who led the young men is dead." He was referring to his young, brave, young brother, young Chief Ollokut** "He who lead the young people is dead."

SAM: Is it true from what you know that Joseoh was not the war leader of the peoples but the 3 were made by Ollokiat and several of the other? Nez Perce?

LC: Yes, I think so. We've always maintained that Chief Joseph in the Great March, that he'd been a great general and he'd outmaneuvered the white peojble through all those miles. But it wasn't because he'd wanted to particularly fight, but it was a way to save the women and the children, the old and the feeble, the wounded--he had all of them in his party. And he hoped to escape up into Canada and rendezvous with Sitting Bull who had just defeated Custer at the Battle of Little Big Horn. And they were to rendezvous in Canada. And Joseph almost made it. The Battle of the Bear Paw was within less than fifty miles of the Canadian border. Some of them did escape across into Canada-andnto Sitting Bull's camp,and didn't come back for many years. But Joseph surrendered there.and it was the winter and not the white men defeated him.

SAM: Is it true that the Nez Perce were forced to cross the Snake River in the spring floods?

LC: Oh, yes. Uh huh. They ordered them down from the Wallowa country to bring the cattle and the horses. They had asked not to have to come until the water went down because it was too hard to ford the river. But they insisted on them coming, and many of the cattle and the stock were drowned in the crossing there. And there is a marker down along the river that commemorates that crossing.

SAM: Do you know whether the people on the Nez Perce reservation,whether they remembered the war very much in later years? Whether they got a more favorable attitude toward Joseph than they had atfthe time? As I understood it the feelings at the time were not so good towards the rebel Nez Perce, the ones that didn't want to be on the reservation.

LC: Well, yes. I think that over the years we've come to see the great injustice of it--the great inhumanity of it. I think that people have long felt that a great wrong was done to these people. And I thiik it took a lot of civilization to bring this feeling about, but I do think that in the last fifty years we've seen great strides made to try to redress the wrong that was done to these people. Many different acts of Congress have helped. We let them be American citizens with full voting privileges and so on. We gave them permission to sue the government for redress. They brought suit in many cases and have won reparations for the wrong done them. But that's only in the last fifty years. At the end of the first we found that some of our best fighters had been our own Indian people. They knew what it was to fight in defense of our homeland. And they were ready to go to war and many of them took very heroic parts for the defense of the United States in all the wars. And we got a new feeling toward them--that a great wrong had been done them, and that we wanted to make reparation, And they have received greater recognition for education to train them to do other kinds of things. And I think the Upward Bound Program is one of the really wonderful things because it spots potential students who could go on to college with a little encouragement and a little help and get degrees and go back and make finer contributions to their people.

SAM: Well, in the early days when the settlement was first made around here, would you say from what you know that the whites and Indians got along rather well? Or were there places where there was much friction between them?

LC: Well, I can't remember in this country hearing much about it because they didn't do much real settling around in here. Their homes were down, as far as the Nez Perce went, their homes were down mostly alongn the Clearwater River where it was warmer and milder. And this was more hunting country where they rode through and passed thmigh. It wasn't like their homes where they tried to live.

SAM: Well, I guess what I'd like to start talking about the settlement--about the early years and the settlers, and you mentioned these people that were among the first people that came in. Could you talk more abou^ them and what sorts of problems they had to deal with when they were here and there was nothing else? I mean, you know, those first ten, fifteen years in this country.

LC: Urn-hum. Well all I can say is things have been told to me by the early settlers. It was my privilege,of course, to know very well, Lilly Lieuallen, who was the daughter of Asbury Almon Lieuallen. And she left many, many interesting things that she remembered as a little child. And we always considered her the first white child born in the Moscow vicinity. And one of the first schools had been established at the Haskins piace^which was east of Moscow. And her father's brother was Noah Lieuallen. And he was a trained Baptist minister, and he preached in the Baptist Church here in Moscow and established one of the first schools. One of the first schools was called the Haskins School, and it was first held out at the Haskins homestead which wias east of where Moscow is now. And Noah Lieuallen taught there. And later when they moved to Moscow, when the Lieuallen family moved to Moscow, then Noah Lieuallen taught at the first Moscow school. And the chief trading place, of course, was clear at Walla Walla. They had to go clear to Walla Walla to get any real supplies those first for years. And asbury Almon Lieuallen ran the first store ~ Moscow. First they had a little store out at Paradise Valley which is east of the present town of Moscow across from where the junior high school now stands. And there are four big poplar trees that marked the place where that first post office stayed. They had a small store there. Then Asbury Almon Lieuallen moved and traded the store to Mr. Neff who became the postmaster, and he moved into what is now Moscow. And that was from 6th Street and Main §treet, it would be the northwest quarter of Moscow,was the Lieuallen Addition of Moscow. And Asbury, Almon, and Lieuallen Street and Lilly Street are all named for that family.

SAM: Was this a trade with Neff for that land?

LC: Yes, they traded, urn-hum. And Neff became postmaster out there, where Asbury Almon Lieuallen had been first. And her they had a little store, and Mr. Lieuallen had to go to Walla Walla to stock his store for the first years that he ran it. And I've heard Lilly tell about how they kept the mail in a shoebox. And there*d be so few letters comer,he could throw them all in a little shoebox and keep the mail for a week until the peopLe rode in to see if they had any mail. So the mail wesn't very heavy into Moscow in those days. And as time went on, around this little settlement, one of the early papers at Lewiston records the platting of the first Moscow village, That there was thirty acres laid out, given by bUT four settlers. And the four corners of land met at the corner of Sixth and Main Street. And the northwest eorn " was Asbury Almon Lieuallen. And the northeast was John Russell. And he also gave the land for the Russell School. knd that's why it bears the name Russell. He gave the land for the Presbyterian Church although it was recorded by Judge Steele, and he was given fifty dollars for making out the papers and filing it. And the sou theast quarter had belonged to Henry McGregor. And the southwest quarter had belonged to Jimmy Deakin^ And Deakin Avenue still bears the name. And he had owned all the land where the University of IdaD now stands. And someplace it is recorded that he sold the land where the university was built for two and was thousand dollars, paid to him in gold pieces. Um-hum. (Pause)Now let me see. There's always a nice argument about why did north Idaho get the university while the capitol was down in the southern part of Idaho. And t can quote Mr. Munson, who was one of the early settlers in th/j-community, and was one of our early state legislators. He always liked to tell it this way—that they divided Idaho up according to itSs needs. Down around Boise they had the most criminals^so they gave them the state penitentiary. Over around in the Blackfoot country they had the greatest need of mental health, so they put the mental institution in that town. But up at Moscow the people were all so ignorant they gave them the university. And that was one of his favorite little witticisms.

SAM: Do you think there's much truth to the way of looking at it that north Idaho was given the university to keep it north Idaho instead of. . .?

LC: Well, yes. I think it was more given to north Idaho to keep them from joining up with Washington. There'd always been an argument about how the geographic difference between north and south Idaho made it almost impossible for before the days of cars/to travel back and forth or to get well acquainted with one another. So I think that there was something to that, that they gave us the university because we had the great mining camps, and much, much of the taxes came out of the great silver and lead mines of north Idaho. They wanted very much to keep it to help pay the taxes for the whole state. So they gave us the state university to keep us as part of Idaho. And I think that would be more logical than any other reason.

SAM: Do you think that the feelings were pretty strong in the early years to join Washington in this part of the country?

LC: Yes, I really think so. I think the geographic differences before we had aitplanes that could get you down there in an hour and automobiles and so on— I think it would have been a lot more logical had we joined with Washington and had had a state captial out in thebiddle of the state of Washington, a little more equalized. But we've all been very happy for many years, so I think it's all right now. We can all fly wherever we want to.

SAM: But every once in a while you still hear talk about it.

LC: That's right. But I'd like to go on record right now and say that after the great contribution: that the mines of north Idaho have made to the state over all these years.I think it would be just ridiculous that the University of Idaho abolish^the School of Mines, after all the years of sacrifice and taxes that have been paid by the mining people. I think they certainly have a right to a school of mines at their own state university.

SAM: I agree with you completely.

LC: Why, I think it's the most ridiculous thing. Hecla, Bunker Hill- those wonderful old mining companies--they built the brand new building that we have here on the campus. They've established many, many wonderful scholar ships. We've turned out some wonderful mining engineers from the university here like Carol Foster, and William Zigler. And then in turn went out and made great names for themselves in the mining fields of South America. Each ,to one of them established innumerable scholarships to be granted young, struggling students wanting an education in mining engineering. And I think it'd be the most ridiculous thing if we didn't have a school of mines in the state of Idaho. I think someone should look into the question of how much, what percentage of the taxes is paid by these great mining companies of the north. 1 think it'd be very interesting to figure that out. And then to have some people thinking that that should be abolished--it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.

SAM: Let me ask you about--are there other people besides the Lieuallen girl who talked to you about these early days?

LC: Oh, yes. I was very good friend; ofr all of Governor McConnell's daughters. We were just very good friends. And they often haYetalked about their girlhoods. And I knew Governor McConnell, himself. And of course they wrote a very fascinating chapter In tie history of Idaho. And I knew Maud Barton Hunter very, very wellc in her old age, And her father of course was the man who established the Moscow Hotel. They called it the Barton her House in those days. Ana ancle was Uncle Jimmy Johnson who ran the undertaking parlor for Moscow--the first undertaking parlor. And I have known down through the years nearly all of those first settlers.

SAM: Well, would you tell me about what you remember about Governor McConnell?

LC: Well, in the days that I knew him he was a very kindly, lovely old man, with very kindly blue eyes. And he was very much interested in all the young people of the country. He often came to the high school and gave little historical talks to us when I was a young girl there. And at that time, probably through the influence of Senator Borah, he had been made head of the immigration office at Moscow for the United States C this part of the country. And I remember writing him and asking him something about the immigration question to use in a debate at Cheney Normal. And he wrote me out so many, many interesting things. And when we defeated Cheney in this debate Lewiston Normal had a telegram congratulating us on this single victory, and they framed that telegram from Governor McConnell in and had it hanging'the president's office for a time.

SAM: That's interesting to me. Can you tell me which side was which in the debate?

LC: We were insisting that we needed ty^t. in more immigrants, and the other Normal was debating that tney should be kept out, that we shouldn't let any more immigrants in. But we took the side that immigrants made great need a great contribution and we had o tor them in the west--in the northwest because we weren't nearly settled yet and there was many, many opportunities. quite But And Governor McConnell got^a kick out of it. it just showed' how interested he was. And while I'm telling about that debate--this is just fantastic since we have another oil crisis onjbut o coming from Moscow up to Cheney Normal to do this debate, asw! we got as far as Moscow, lovely little grey haired lady—I thought she must be at least a hundred boarded the train. And I immediately took her bag and made her comfortable and proceeded to try my debate out on her for size. We'd been told to do this-- anyone who could listen, by all means start in. So I started in telling her—this was about the oil crisis, so I was telling her about how oil meant power and power meant money and th^t money was the root of all evill. And that the modern girls of 1919 didn't intend to take anything lying down^ fciat we just intended to hold high this torch that had been passed to us. (pre-dating Mr. Kennedy by quite a few yearsjand we were just going to hayeta-i new deal —ind that the oil situation in the United States should be nationalized in 1919 fashion. So when we got to Spokane I helped her find a cab and sent her on her way. And the next morning we got a telegram and it said: "Congratulations winners! Hold high that torch or you're going to ignite the oil fieldsl" It was signed: "Your little old lady, Ida M. Tarbell." I had been talking to Ida M. Tarbell who had been the trust buster andtone of the first women's libbers in the United States. She'd just taken on the Standard Oil Company, and she was just returning to the East from a trip to the two university towns where the topic of her address was "Oil Its Power and Its Promise." Yes.

SAM: She'd been talking right at Pullman-Moscow?

LC: Yes, she'd been talking at Pullman and Moscow. And she was talking about the Standard Oil Company, and the title of her topic was "Oil—Its Power and Its Promise."

SAM: What was your impression of her? I don't supposed you thought that she was I Tarbell?

LC: Oh, I didn't. I did !r know who Ida M. Tarbell was though^because I had often read her great biography of Abraham Lincoln. So I knew who she was, but heavens, I had no idea this dear little old lady that I thought was about ninety, I didn't know that was she. So I told her all about oil--how oil was power and power was money and money was the root of all evil. And I didn't know I was talking to Ida M. Tarbell until we got the telegram.

SAM: Oh, that's wonderful. Well, listen. Tell me more about Governor McConnell. What do you know about how he made good and how he also had a hard time early days.?

LC: Yes, well he was really a very fine man. He had/money the hard way. He had driven a mule team all the way from Missouri into Oregon in the very, very early days. He always said, "I was the first governor that ever walked into Idaho because I didn't have enough money to come any otherway. When I walked from Oregon into Payette I had twenty-five cents in my pocket." But he made wise investments. And it was the boom days for Idaho City. He raised beautiful gHrdens down around Horseshoe Bend and did some of the first irrigating in the state of Idaho. He raised great big onions that he sold for a dollar a poundj Watermelons that he freighted into Idaho City gold mines at a dollar a pound. So he had done very, very well. So.

SAM: Was he involved in vigilante activities down there?

LC: Oh yes, he certainly was. He headed them. He brought law and order to the state of Idaho. And in his old age he said, "I wrote us some books about vigilante days and way" I wish I had my copy now; it'd be worth quite a little money. He was Idaho's leading citizen. He pnbably came to Moscow in 1879 because in 1880, when my father came here Governor McConnell was already here. And he was a very leading citizen. He was always ready to donate money to the churches. The records of our church show that he headed the list with a hundred dollars to build the nev building. He donated land for the Swedish Church and for the Episcopal Church that came out of the McConnell addition to Moscow. He was very public spirited in every way. And in the Panic of 1893 he suffered great loss. In thos^days your stoekeepers, he owned the big store which we later called the Williamson Store, he owned the land where the McConnell Mansion stands, he owned the property where the Swedish Church and where the old parsonage stood. That was the ol carriage house on the lot. And here he ran an undertaking parlor where he sold coffins. And I've often heard Mrs. Borah tell about how they loved to go up in the loft of the carriage house and get into those coffinranpretend they were dead,until their father caught them at it and had them quit. But the he owned- big store there, and he stocked it largely from Portland. Manv of the ads say: "Tne Best Store this side of Portland!" And in those days in the spring the farmers would go in^ they'd get their groceries. He also owned an elevator where they sold grain and he would them stake to grain seed, feed for their horses, for groceries for the family.

And then came that great panic 1393 and it was a wet harvest. The rain started about the midflle of August and didn't let up. And the grain standing in the fields sprouted. I've heard my mother tell that you could look out over a field of ripe grain and there'd be an inch oft the top growing of green She place where all the stuff had sprouted and was growing over again. the whole smelled like a great malt house from the smell of the rotting, decaying grain. And the big Chamberlain House at Pullman, the elevator^went down under it. Mr. Chamberlain had fcought wheat on the board of trade and lost heavily, and it went bankrupt. Well, the McConnell enterprises here at Moscow felt the shock and it staggered and went down too. And of course Governor McConnell could have foreclosed on the farmers who owed him money. There werehundreds and hundreds of farmers struggling along who couldn't pay their debts that fall. And he ccdd have foreclosed and taken the land and been the land baron of the country, but he didn't. He'd always been a good poker payer and he said, "I took a chance on them, and I'll still take a chance and we'll all go down together." So he too went bankrupt in 1893. And one of the interesting things that the abstract OA the McConnell Mansion shows that in 1893 Mrs. McConnell filed a homestead on the place,saying that this was the only home that she and the children had to live on. And the McConnell enterprises went to the wall lowing over two hundred thousand dollars. But it should be said to the everlasting credit of Governor McConnell that over the years all the creditors were paid out. He paid out everybody that he owed. And while he never recouped his own personal fortune, he got everybody paid that he owed. And that is recorded in the Idaho histories.

SAM: So Mrs. McConnell filed on the McConnell Mansion as a h3estead?

LC: Yes, uh-huh. Yes, as a homestead. So I've always had an idea that that was one reason why Mrs. Borah was sent to Boise to be the governor's official hostess. Mrs. McConnell hardly dared leave the house because she had filed a homestead on it, She had to stay there because was the only home she had. So I think that probably she stayed in Moscow to tend the governor's the store whiter husband and Mamie went to Boise to preside asl first lady of Idaho.

SAM: The newspapers at the time were saying that she was shy, is that right?

LC: Yes, the newspapers said that, and they probably didn't want to go into all the bankruptcy ordeal, but I always thought it was a very heroic thing that the old governor did—was to go to the wall himself rather than fe«u foreclose on all the poor farmers who were standing with their backs to the wall too. I thought it was most heroic.

SAM: Well, his losing his fortune in this depression didn't ruin him. He was still an honored citizen and became governor after that, didn't he?

LC: Oh yes. Yes, that's right. I think maybe that's why. People honored him for what he had done. Instead of foreclosing on the struggling homesteaders of the vicinity and taking whatever land they had or had tried to accumulate, he went down with them; they all went under together. But he did pay off all his bankruptcy--all the debts that he owed. I don't know where he ever got enough money to do it in those hard times that followed the Panic of 1893.

SAM: You think that he went down partly because of what had happened over in Pullman.

LC: Yes. I think it was, yes. It was the after-shock of it all. Although he never blamed the partner for it, he said it was the changing times is what did it. And I suppose that's true too. The times were so against him. And the panic followed the wet harvest and no one.

(End of Side B)

SAM: . . .a lot of backing from this area. Were there people from around here that were pretty much in gettin him elected, running his campaign and all that?

LC: Yes, I think so, unwhum. I think that he was politically strong and politically astute. And of course his treatment of the people in this immediate vicinity was a great boost to him. People honored him for the stand he'd taken. Instead of trying to get weaLthy himself at their expense, he too went under with them. They all went down together. And I think he was highly honored for that stand.

SAM: Had he been one of the wealthiest people in this area before that?

LC: Yes. Oh definitely. Yes, he had been. Most definitely, uh'huh.

SAM: What are some of the other things that the McConnell girls told you about the old days?

LC: Well, they were definitely the society girls of the town of Moscow. The Presbyterian Church started,before there was a University of Idaho, they started the Moscow Academy. And Reverend Mr. Adair taught in- and he was a highly educated cultured man. And the McConnell girls were the pride and joy of that academy. They attended the academy. And they were very, very well liked. They were charming, gracious, witty, witty girls. And they were very, very popular with everybody. And they were clever. One of the cute things Mm. Borah always told was that William Borah had come to town and he VI stood on the corner there at Second and Adams Street, and they came out In their big white hats and white dresses and stepped into a carriage to go on a Sunday afternoon picnic. And Bill Borah looked and he said, "I'm going to marry one of those girls," to himself. So the next morning he presented himself down at the store, and one of the clerks came running upstairs to where Mamie was keeping books for the ntore and said, "Oh, there's a nice young man down here wants to meet you." She said, "I looked over the banister and I said, 'Say you don't mean that man with his mouth open, do you?' Little did I know he was going to have his mouth open the rest of our lives!" And they stole the show up here at the Sixtieth Class Reunion at the University of Idaho. I think it was Ollie McConnell did this one. Along about half-past eleven at the alumni banquet Governor McConnell. But Carrie and 01lie both have told about riding out in the carriage to see the Chinamen panning for gold along Cumrine Creek. But I don't think very much was ever, used to tell

SAM: What was the story that the Chinamen told them about why they had to have their pigtails?

LC: Oh yes. So they could be pulled up into heaven. They couldn't go back without theirj-" , and when they got back to China if they wanted to get to heaven they had to be pulled up by their. so they But I think those are just stories. You know, they're just fun.

SAM: Oh yes. So, you say social life, that they were sort of the center of the social life.

LC: Yes, that's right.

SAM: Who were some of the other people that were at the top of the social swing in those days?

LC: Oh yes. Well, I suppose t Maude Barton Hunter^whose father ran the Moscow Hotel would be counted one of them. She was a very beautiful girl. And I think all the Mix girls. One became Mrs. Jerry Day, you know, of the Day mines, very wealthy people. And I think the Mix boys were probably part of it. And the Hortons. And the David boys, of course, we mustn't leave them out. All of those were the society of Moscow.

SAM: Did they all go to the same school or the same, or were they. . .?

LC: Well, a lot of them did go to this Presbyterian Academy, and then a lot of them became students at the University of Idahowhen it was established and got going. They transferred up to there and went to the University of Idaho. this Presbyterian Academy at the Presbyterian Church was one of the ffrst schools of higher learning established in the state, fcacause it antedated the university by two or everybody had been up telling long stories that want on forever^ and Jim master of ceremonies asked Ollie if she didn't have some little story she'd like to tell. So she said, "Well, I'll tell you, girls and boys, the kind of stories I know you're just too young to hearl" And she brought down the house on that one. We all got up and went home. It was the most popular speech made. And Mrs. Borah shocked all of us nice little Presbyterian ladies to death about 1921 when Harding was president. She addressed the women's association one afternoon and told us about life in Washington. And when she got done and a lot of us were going home, some dear little lady asked her, "Now do tell us about our dear President. How is he?" And she said,"Well, he's very well indeed. He's good. Since he had that prostate gland trouble he's been very good indeed!" And this was about ten years before Nan Britten's story came out^ so we were just shocked at Mamie saying such terrible things. We thought she'd gone a little too far that time. But a few years later we read Nan Britten and we thought, well, how right she'd been.

SAM: Well, did you tell me that they said that they used to go out to the mines and that McConnell had mines2

LC: Yes. I've often heard Carrie, who was the youngest of the McConnell daughters tell about how she'd ride out between the Twin Sisters out on Cumrine Creek. And they loved to go out and see the Chinese doing the placer mining there with the gold pans. They would pan for gold in the bottom of the Cumrine Creek. She said that he father had brought in about six hundred Chinese men.and they all wore their long pig-tails, in those days because they couldn't return to the homeland without It. And that some of Moscow hoodlums on Saturday night would try as a little pastime to try cut off the from the Chinese miners who were panning gold for old three years. But with the founding of the university then it no longer had a purpose.

SAM: Going back to the founding of the town of Moscow. do you know about when you could say Moscow was starting as a town? I mean when people were starting to move there and the platting and all that?

LC: Well, I think we had been Paradise Valley, and as I say the post office and the store were out across, about from where the junior high school is now—out on Mountain View Road. JLnd I think it was about '76 or '77. It was '77, I think when the post office was changed to Moscow and they moved into where Moscow is now located where the four--and I think it was platted there in '77 from ; the land donated by those fair homesteaders. That was the year they pktted it and named it Moscow.

SAM: "That about more information about some of tiese first people that came. Did you tell me that the Clydes came very early among these first wagon trains?

LC: Yes, yes they did. In 1877 and that was one of the big wagon trains coming in to Moscow, and with that came the they were the great-grandfather of the Clydes. And in that wagon train there were Snows. And the Snow family Grandma Snow was a Stewart. Grandma Stewart was already here. They had settled down below where the Latah County Convalescent Home is. And Mrs. Taylor, Uncle Billy Baylor's wife, was a Stewart. And the Finneys were in this wagon train and Mrs. Finney too was a Stewart. She was a sister to Mrs. Snow. And in this wagon train werejthe Vartde Walkers. In the wagon train were the Hokes. And the Hokes were Grandma Sutler's people. Grandma 2itler and Grandma Hoke were Pennsylvania Dutch, and they had come originally from the Lancaster country. They were Mennonites. And in this wagon train were the Finneys and the Snows, and Arthur Snow was a small boy at that time; Ed Snow was tiny; Arthur Snow and Charlie Snow.

SAM: Where did it come from, this wagon train?

LC: It had come from Kansas—Tipton, Kansas. And they had left there on account of the grasshopper plague. They'd had two years of grasshoppers and they'd eaten, I've heard them tell about how the fence posts even were they'd them eaten, just eaten down till there was nothing left but a small stick, stickin in the ground. And after losing twice from they decided to come to this country.because the Stewarts wrote back glowing reports. And the Stewarts had come in '71. And when they got this far they stopped at the Uncle Billy Taylor place, and that is just this side of where the Latah Convalescent stands. And Uncle Billy Taylor already had an orchard. He already had garden; he had cows. And I've often heard Grandma Snow say that oh she was so glad because her mother had come down and was waiting are there at Uncle Billy Taylor's house. was Grandma Stewart waiting for them. And they were so delighted to see each other after the long trip. And Uncle Billy flaylor had come out and said, "Well not*; you folks just circle your wagons right here and stay. I have a garden and my trees are already coming into bearing, and we have milk, and them's lots of water and you can just stay here while you go and look for homesteads."And I've heard them say that some of them camped there for six months at the Taylor place while they looked for homesteads that they could settle on. And that was one of the big wagon trains into Moscow.

SAM: Did many of these people settle near each other?

LC: Yes. The Snows and the Clydes have joined fences ever since. And I always tell the Snows, "We haven't quarreled about the fence line yet!" But it certainly goes back many, many years.

SAM: So orchards and crops came up that early, eh?

LC: Yes. that fast. They came, you see, in '71. Well, in the fall of '77 Uncle Billy Taylor already had apple trees bearing) because I remember Grandma Clyde telling about, she was a little girl then, but oh, good the apples tasted. They had come without any fresh things, and they were so delighted to get there because the vegetables and the apples were so delicious.

SAM: What have you heard about the first homes that people built,like the Clydes and those folks?

LC: Well, yes. First they built a little log cabin. You know they got here in September. Well, they went to the mountains and brought back trees and made a log cabin. And it had a dirt floor. And they lived in that the first year. And then the following spring, they built the house, and it's the house that we live in now. And they had Hoke relatives and Sitlers and for instance, they were good at doing lath and plaster. This was the first teuse that was plastered in the country, but they knew how to do it. And they were highly skilled at making pottery. They dug out a clay bank over here and built a brick kiln, and they made clay pottery, crocks and things. And they. . .

SAM: Was this for home utensils?

LC: Yes, they were for home utensils. They made the for themselves and we still have some of them around. And Mr. Hoke was a skilled wheelright at many, many things like that.

SAM: Do you think they had a little money when they came out?

LC: Yes, I think they did. They were. . .Grandpa was a veteran from the Civil War, and he had been wounded. And he had a government pension. He drew a pension. He had had his mouth shot away^ nd he had a silver plate in his jaw. so he drew a government pension. Btit all of them had a little money, but they had sold in Kansas because of the grasshopper plague and the drought. And they were awfully glad to get into this country. And they were Pennsylvania Dutch extraction. Grandma Sitler and Grandma Clyde always wore the little bonnets of the Mennonites, you know, And they made they all the oldtime recipes like for the red cabbage relishj And knew how t to make fritters and they were very, very skilled in all the old Pennsylvania Dutch methods of cooking and doing things. They made their own butter; they did all kinds of things like that,the most beautiful handwork, beautiful stitching that you could ever want to see, uh huh. (Break)

LC: I guess It's like Paul said, "Let the women be silent..let all of. them cover their heads." And there's almost a religion with 'em that you were very modest and you kept your dresses always high at the neck and down around here, long sleeved and a bonnet over your head. That was part of the modesty, yeah.

SAM: So they wore the bonnets inside aswell as outside?

LC: Yeah. (break)

LC: Well, these pioneer people carried a lot of education with them, and almost the first thing th it they did when they got to this country was start schools.There was a McGuire School started the very next spring after the wagon train of '77 got in. And when the first wagon train came in to Moscow in '71, the Haskins School was started that year, taught by Noah Lieuallen who was a trained Baptist minister and a schoolteacher. The School was started shortly after that;which was out back of where the ChineseGarden now is. the love of education and the love of religion were innate in all these people. In 1875 Noah Lieuallen established the Baptist Church, in what is now in Moscow at the where very site the present Baptist Church now stands. The county was soon divided into school districts, and they had land grants—certain sections of land were set aside and they were called the school sections. And the profit from that land was to be used to support schools for our county. At one time we had ahundred and twenty schools in Latah County, before the times of consolidation. And in the very, very early days, each school/was divided according to the walking distance so the .children wouldn't have too far to walk to school. And when the communities were very young the teachers often boarded around from one house to another. And that'd be part of their pay.In the very, very early days before the turn of the century probably, the school would just be held in the spring and then again in the fall when the weather would be good. And of course, only the smaller children could attend school,because the older ones had to help in the field and help in the house with the numerous household duties. the small children could go to school to learn to read and write. But this seemed to be one—this love of learning was something innate to all those pioneer families. I attended one of these rural sdools in the early 1900's, and there'd be all grades from one to eight. The children would range in age from six to twenty-one, big ones and little oies all together, some of them older and bigger than our teachers. And the teachers' training, most of them were rather mediocre. Anytime they got enough education so they could pass astate examination,they could go out and become teachers. And some of them, they went through the eighth and then they'd take the examination, and this would qualify them to teach. And none of the schools had many facilities at first. The were just big, pot-bellied stoves, and the older boys would split some wood and light a fire to keep it warm. There were rude of the early teachers were rather poorly trained, but some of them were ood. The pay was very mediocre—forty dollars amonth and your board by boarding around, walkingt home. Lots of the children had many miles to walk to get to school. Some of them rode horseback. And a little later they got eight moths schools, and these would run through the winter. It was up to the parents to get the children down to school, or the children could ride horseback. And most of the learning was the three R's- reading writing and arithmetic, and very little else.

SAM: What was the method that they used?

LC: Well, the big ones helped the little ones. That was one of the big advantages,because the older ones got a lesson in patience and how to deal with the little ones. It wasn't all a lost cause. Often you could learn more from the older children than you did from the teacher. And when the teachers could sing that was a great advantage.because they brought a little music into the lives of the children, out with schools with forty fifty children in them learning was quite a hard job. I was fortunate in having some good teachers. And I liked to read and learn and I loved the library books. When they got to the place where they would bring in a few extra library books, I loved them and enjoyed reading them. When I got to college my teacher asked me if I'd ever read David Copperfield. I said, "Oh, yes I had. I'd read it twenty-five times." And he was shocked. John Cushman was shocked at that. He said, "Well, what else did you do when you were in school?" I said, "That's just about all. I'd hurry through the lesson so I could go and get the story books and read themjand I soon had them all read through, so then I'd have to go back and read »em over again." But that was means of escape from the mud and the other things that I didn't enjoy about the country schools. But there was some learning . went on at the same time, I think. We brought our own cold lunches, you know, generally packed in a tobacco box, the old plug tobacco boxes. And by noon they were frozen if you left them out in the hall, they were frozen nice and stiff. Sometimes you'd bring them in a set 'em around the heater, you know, keep them a little warm. And there were no hot lunches in those days, io we didn't have that problem to contend with. And the th^g^I ^e^iemiber^ y probably the best was how when I got to be a little older, then I was allowed to go and help the younger ones. And I decided that I wanted to be a teacher because it was rewarding to see them learn to read and be on their own a little bit. So I think that was one of the things that I got out of rural schools.

SAM: Did they have you recite very much? Was that. . .?

LC: Oh yes, Every Friday afternoon we had the recitations. And we all learned little pieces and we'd get up and speak them. This was no hardship on me because I could learn them quickly and easily, and on Friday afternoon get we'd entertain our parents, if the parents could down, speaking pieces. And thosewho could sing would sing songs, and the whole social life of each community centered around the school. It was one common bond of interest among the parents, the welfare of their children. It was always surprising and how all the parents turned out for the Christmas programs'for the last day of school picnic. And it was the big social event of the year. Some of the schools even went farther than that. They'd have maybe Friday night parties. And they played the oldtime party games. It was considered very wrong in most of the schools to dance in those days, but it was all right to play "Skip to my Lou" and "Happy is the Miller Boy" and the "Needle's Eyej1 and all the old time singing party games that were traditional to the early pioneer settlement.

SAM: Do you remember how any of these games were played?

LC: Oh, yes, nearly all of them had something to do with choosing partners. And this was very delightful for the young teenagers of that day. There wasn't any rock 'n roll, you know, but there was lots of fun chasing your partner for "Miller Boy" and so on. And lots of the courting of the early days went on at these play party games of the country schools. It must have been very successful where I can look back see many of the couples who met there and played there and walked home from there^ kow they're married and still stickin' together after all these years.

SAM: So what you're saying is that the school was really the center of social life.

LC: Yes, that's right. They'd have basket suppers, you know, and the girls would fix up pretty baskets and sometimes they'd give a little hint of which one was their/ if theJhad someone special they wanted to buy it. And how each of the girls vied to turn out the best cooking and the best cake and the nicest baskets. And there was much bidding on the baskets and much rivary among the young men to see who'd get the right girl's basket. And this was a meeting ground for the young people.

SAM: Was this mostly just kids or did the parents come too?

LC: Oh, the parents came too. And they were generally well chaperoned by all the old folks of the community. It would be the sofci al event of the week, to the would be gotig down to the schoolhouse Friday night literary society or to the basket supper or*whatever the school offered by way of entertainment. It was their television and their movie house—it was everything that they had to break the monotony of the pioneer winters.

SAM: What about these literaries? What kind of things went on there?

LC: Well, the literary society—sometimes the old folks would get up and have spirited debates among themselves. And sometimes the young people would sing. Anybody that could play the violin, tht was quite an attraction.Then there'd be recitation*of the various grades, and always of course community singing by everybody. And it was an outlet—it was ^social life of that community. And itwasn't all bad because very little drinking ever want on at any of them.and they were a nice place for the young folks to get to gether and meet. It was a nice place for the children to show off a little bit so the parents could enjoy what was going on. And the parents were always entertaine own children up speaking. The parents were having a wonderful time.

SAM: Do you remember what they used to debate in the old days?

LC: Oh,my. A lot of them had religious conotations like: "Is the Bible true i that had or is it not?" And of course before been the questions of free silver. And even in those days there were debates going on about the oil situation^. Should we nationalize the oil? And that hasn't been settled after all these sevtentyjyears, they're still debating that, you know. And, resolved that the Indians didn't get a fair shake. And that's another question still open for debate. So times haven't changed too much, you know. Human nature doesn't change much, so the same human problems are still a subject for debate and for solving. Isn't that right? And of course the speaking of pieces-?- ^e had many memory gams that we were to learn. And if we learned them real well we got to speak them for the benefit of our fathers and mothers. And we learned many things. I can remember speaking about "Still sits the schoolhouse by the road" and'life is real, life is earnest, and the grave goal." And such little gems as that for the edification of the parents.

5AM: These are poems?

LC: Um-hum, um-hum. That's right. And if we could learn them well then we got to show off a little bit. And of course the last day of school was quite an occasion too. We'd have picnic dinner and then we'd follow it with the by the entire student body /singing of songs.

SAM: Day by day do you think most of the kids did look forward to going to school? Or do you think they would just as soon live without it like they are today?

LC: Well, I think maybe it was mixed emotions. Mixed emotions. Those of us who liked the school and school came easy for us, those of enjoyed going. I often think about the spelling bees. The people who enjoyed it the most were the people who needed it the least. Those of us who were good spellers, we enjoyed going to the spelling bees and spelling down. But if you the weren't good at it you didn't enjoy it so much. And that was;one disadvantage, If you were good at mathematics they'd have these ciphering bees. Well, it only made the people good at mathematics and good at spelling got all the practice. And they got all the glory. And those who weren't good at it would just get poorer and poorer, and the. good ones didn't need it. So ft the were many. .

(End if Side 6)

LC: . . . our teeth clean, you know. What difference did it matter if we could name all the parts of the body, all the different organs and didn't know enough to wash our hands before we ate lunch? The wrong emphasis was put on the health ^ pnyslology in those days. And such wrong emphasis was put on when I was a student. Then when I became a teacher in the school we went the other way. It was get out a health chart and wash your hands and face. Did you brush your teeth? But it took so long to fill 'em out and so many of the children, it taught 'em just to lie. Mark it all "X". We did it all. whether they did or not. And the form became much more important than the meaning of the thing that gradually we got away from that. So that was part of it. And as a student they put so much emphasis on learning things by rote. You just learned a lot of rules for grammar. And what difference does it We mightn't all of us know that a singular noun takes a singular verb and a plural noun takes a plural verb, but if we all said bar* for have and done for did, did for done, why we weren't applying the thing that we*learned. And we gradually got a new concept of what education was about. It didn't matter if we knew every state in the union and the capitftj. of those states,if we didn't know how the people of those states lived^'^faat some of the problems of those people werej and how the geogr aphy of a state affected the live of the people living in the state. That was far more important than learning just states and capitals of the United States.

SAM: So you think that education when you were in school and you were young was mostly form and then that you moved towards content as you grew up.

LC: Yes, I think so. And more thinking. More thinking in it. And how do we apply it to our own lives. As a teacher I had progressed a long way from the way I was taught as a child in school. I learned more the application of what I was learning as a teacher, and I tried to teach it to and make it more functional in the lives of the children I taught.

SAM: Well, when you were a student with all the different kids in lifferent grades, different levels, how did the teacher handle that in one room?

LC: Well, it was pretty hard. And some of them would sit there day after day and hot get much attention at all until some of the older children would come and helpt the younger ones. And that was a big stride forward. It gave the older children a chance to be helpful and see what the problems were and sit among the younger ones. Because just to g there May after day without any attention wasn't very inspiring. And in the very early times that's the way it had to be done. Teachers couldn't possibly get around to eviybody. But when they started in dividing it up and letting the older children tell who already could read go and hear the younger children spell and 'them the new words that they didn't knoW; It was. big help.

SAM: Did the teacher divide the school into classes?

LC: Yes. Um-hum. They were supposed to be divided into classes. Eight different grades. And the number of classes taught was astounding, you know. There'd be eight or nine different branches for the upper grades to learn. And down in the lower grades they were supposed to have reading and writing and arithmetic and spelling. In'fourth grade you got some geography added and in the fifth grade you'd add history. And the higher you progressed the more different subjects were added to your curriculum.

SAM: Would she take one class and one subject at a time?

LC: Yes. That's the way they tried to do it, but sometimes there would be acombination^heyli Couple of grades together doing something. But it was a pretty rugged and pretty primitive method of teaching. When we got older and went out to teach, when we went out to teach of course we'd been trained to combine classses and to give individual instruction and to tell Johnny and Susie r they weren't competing with the other members of the class. It didn't matter what Filly was doing, we were just to do the best we could. See a if today we could spell a little better than we did yesterday. And tomorrow we're going to get our arithmetic and have it a little better than we had it today. And don't matter what the other folks in the class are doing—don't compete with them—you compete with yourself. And each day try to improve your record of the past day. And that was a better approach.

SAM: When you were in school did you get to recite with the older classes or did you have to stick with whatever grade you were in?

LC: Oh, we were supposed to stick with whatever grade we were in, you know, but you learned a|ot from listening to the others recite, you know. I learned many, many things just sitting there listening to them go over their history and go over their arithmetic and their geography. You learned a lot from hearing them.

SAM: Were you supposed to be working while. . .?

LC: I was supposed to be workin*. I was supposed to be working.

SAM: What about the discipline?

LC: Well, there were always disciplinary problems. That we've always had with us, I think. And I think most of it came from boredom and lack of challenge. And the big boys had always heard the stories about how they'd thrown some teacher out on their ear. And each generation had to live up to the former generation's deeds, you know. And they heard all these stories about putting the snake in the teacher desk and theodead mice and so on. So there were always boys trying that. And in our schools we had boys bigger and stronger" than the teachers, and there could be no real corporal punishment. They had one recburaej they could always call in" the school district directors to settle the disciplinary problems. And as a last resort they could kick 'em out of school.which really wasn't any solution. You just got the problem out from under your nose. You swept it under the rug 'em out.

SAM: When you thiik about it when you were in school were the kids really attentive to what the teacher had to say? I know when I was a kid there were some classes where it wasn't that way and some classes where it was.

SAM: Well, it was kind of that way when I was. in school too. There were some of the older ones that only came to school in the winter when thy couldn't be running the plow and seeding at home thenthey would come to school. Well, just they'd be far behind the restof the children ,and they couldn't wait until they could drop out" of school and go and do their own thing. And I can see their point too. There wasn't much offered for them. And school was hard for some of them. And it was hard to come and compete with others much younger than they were. And I know there was so little offered for them that was pertinent to what they wanted to do.

SAM: Are there any teachers that you remember when you were young that were especially good or especially bad in the classroom? You don't have to give me the name of somebody that was bad, but I'm just curious about those that stood out.

LC: Oh, I think most of mine were pretty good teachers. I liked to study and and I liked to learn and it was easy for me, and I enjoyed gettin done with my lessons and then getting the library books. And by the time I was able to read, well they'd started in buying a few books for the library. And I can remember at a very early age reading Pride and Prejudice , Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice and Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm,Hans Brinker and the Silver Skates, ana^I said,David Copperfield twenty-five times.And they were fun to read and you escaped into a different world. And you forgot about the mud on the schoolhouse floor, and you went and got your coat if you got too cold, and it was an avenue of escape;through reading books.

SAM: The muddiness and cold of the school were real problems?

LC: Yeah, I thought so. It seemed to me they were. It was very real to me that we were cold,,- So that's the way some of it went in those good old days.

SAM: Did they have trouble with getting materials enough for the kids to have books of ther own and that sort of thing? Or was that a problem when you were a kid?

LC: Well, our school district bought the books and furnished the books. And it was one of the few districts that did, but that was good. Because about all the some of the parents could do would be to buy a paper and a pencil and an eraser and some ink for the kids--let alone buy the books$°0ur school district bought the books, and tb me that was a very fine thing because we didn't have to worry then about that.

SAM: What about language problems? Were there kids in school. . .?

LC: Yes, we had some children that had been raised in homes whenre they didn't speak English. We had in ou\r school a coupla families that had only spoke n Norwegian or Swedish at home. And the language barrier was hard for those children. As soon as they mastered the English language, then they did so much better than they had in the first years when they started and didn't understand what was going on. After they had mastered the English language; then they became so much better students. When they didn't speak the English language at home it was very difficult for them. And we did have that in a a couple of instances in the days.

SAM: I imagine they couldn't mix very much with the kids that spoke English either.

LC: No, no that's right. They were sort of on the outside of it. But as a teacher, when I went out to teach in the rural schools myself, I never had that problem. But I know as a youngster going to school we did have it in a couple of instances. Um-hum.

SAM: What about getting to school in the winter in bad weather? Was trat a problem for the kids?

LC: Yes, it was. It was kind of hard sometimes. But the folks, most of them hitched up to a sled and brought the kids,or one of the neighbors would hook up avteam to the sled and they'd bring in all the kids would ride down together in different directions to the school. And in the winter the parents do but see that the kids got to school and back. g0 it was handled quite successfully. A lot of the older ones rode horses to school. And that's the way it was done.

SAM: There's one more thing that comes to my mind about schools, and that it that you were sort of saying before that the length of time increased as the years went on when the school was in session?

LC: Yes, that's right. In the very early days it would just be like in the spring and in the fall, when the roads were good and they could get there easily. But then later on they got to running maybe a seven month school, and gradually it became an eight month school. finally it was nine months school, the same as in towns. They'd all go nine months. And that'll- through tne winter—begining in September and . get out in May.

SAM: Why was there so much mud on the school floor? Was that because you had to wear the shoes that you came in? You didn't have other shoes to put on?

LC: That's right. Most us us didn't have—if we did have rubbers or overshoes we wouldn't wear 'em, you know, Aand we'd be out in the mud and we came in with the mud. I remember so well the mud on the school floors. That's one of the things that sticks in my mind, um»hum. The mud.

SAM: Well, I should get going. . .

1:00 - First explorers, missionaries; Idaho territorial government; Tom Tierney first permanent settler

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Segment Synopsis: Background for Latah County history. Waves of visitors paralleled the early years of the Northwest: explorers Lewis and Clark, fur traders, missionary Henry Spalding. Issac Ingall Stevens, territorial governor of Washington, left the first written record in 1855. The E. D. Pierce party, led by Jane Silcott (Chief Timothy's daughter), passed through the county and discovered gold near Canal Gulch. The gold rush started the town of Lewiston, and the Idaho territorial government began. In 1870 the first permanent settler, Tom Tierney, homesteaded. The first wagon train came in 1871.

9:00 - Origins of the city name of Moscow

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Segment Synopsis: Moscow was named after Sam Neff's hometown of Moscow, Pennsylvania. Napoleon's retreat made Moscow a popular name in the U.S. Other stories about Hog Heaven, ma's cow and moss cow.

13:00 - Native American presence in Latah County; Nez Perce

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Segment Synopsis: The location of the spring where Father Cataldo and Henry Spalding camped in the county. The routes of the two Indian trails in the county, Greater Nez Perce Trail and the Red Wolf Trail. Indians used the country to fatten their horses and gather camas: Latah is Nez Perce for "the place of pestle and pine." The area was a place for meeting with the Coeur d'Alenes and the Spokanes, and horse racing.

22:00 - Settlements during the Nez Perce War of 1877

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Segment Synopsis: Several forts were built around Moscow during the Nez Perce War of 1877. The settlers weren't in danger, but they formed companies, like the civil war.

29:00 - Old Chief Joseph, Young Joseph

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Segment Synopsis: Old Chief Joseph renounces Spalding when he realizes the government is taking the Wallowas away from him at the Treaty of 1863. Old Joseph tore up the Book of Matthew and left the treaty conference. Young Joseph takes his people in retreat in 1877, but is defeated short of the Canadian border by the coming of winter. Progress in American attitudes towards redressing the wrongs done the Indians.

40:00 - Early Years of Moscow

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Segment Synopsis: Early years of settlement. Some memories of Lillie Lieuallen: the Lieuallen store, and land at the site of Moscow.

46:00 - Why North Idaho Didn't Join Washington State

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Segment Synopsis: Munson's explanation of why Moscow got the university, Boise the jail, and Blackfoot the mental institution. There was considerable sentiment in the area to become part of Washington; but South Idaho wanted the north to stay because of all the taxes from the mining country. Why the College of Mines should be kept at Idaho.

50:00 - Debating the Oil Trusts

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Segment Synopsis: Governor McConnell gave Lola information on immigration which Lewiston Normal used in winning their debate with Cheney; Lewiston argued that the Northwest needed more people. She practiced her debate on busting the oil trusts with a nice old woman who turned out to be Ida Tarbell. Miss Tarbell had just spoken at the local universities on "Oil: Its Power and Promise."

56:00 - Governor McConnell's History in Moscow

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Segment Synopsis: McConnell's early career; he liked to say he was the only governor who walked into Idaho. He was very civic minded. His big store and other businesses in Moscow. In the Panic and Wet Harvest of 1893 he heroically went bankrupt rather than foreclose on the farmers, and even managed to pay off his debts. His wife homesteaded the McConnell Mansion, which is probably why she stayed in Moscow when he went to Boise as governor, and Mrs. Borah served as his hostess.

65:00 - McConnell girls attended Moscow Academy; William Borah; other members of Moscow society

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Segment Synopsis: The McConnell girls were at the center of Moscow society, very popular and witty. They attended Moscow Academy, run by the Presbyterian Church before the university came. Mrs. Borah's joke about the first time she saw William Borah, with his mouth open, and her crack about President Harding's propensities. The girls told of watching the Chinese miners their father had brought in to Creek. Maude Barton Hunter, the Mixes, the Hortons and the Davids were also Moscow society.

73:00 - Moscow Settlers in 1877

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Segment Synopsis: The town of Moscow began about 1877. The 1877 wagon train brought the Clydes, Zitlers, Snows, Finneys, Stewarts and others. They came from Kansas after the grasshopper plagues, hearing glowing reports from the Stewarts. On arriving they camped at Uncle Billy Taylor's, who gave them fresh produce from his orchard and urged them to stay on his place until they located their homesteads. The Clydes built a log cabin that fall, and then Lola's present house the next spring, the first in the country which used lathe and plaster. They were highly skilled, making pottery; and one was a wheelwright. Grandpa Zitler had a civil war pension from injury. They were Pennsylvania Dutch. The women wore bonnets inside for modesty; they cooked the old recipes, and quilted beautifully.

84:00 - Schools began immediately after Moscow settlement; social events

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Segment Synopsis: Schools were started immediately after settlement. Teachers were often not well educated. School was crowded, and cold and muddy in winter. Big kids helped little ones learn. Lola escaped by reading David Copperfield. School was the social center of the community: Friday afternoon recitations, Friday evening party games, basket suppers and courting. Enjoyment of literaries, debate topics, speaking memory gems. The last day of school. Those who enjoyed bees the most needed them the least.

96:00 - Difficulties with Teaching and Education

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Segment Synopsis: Problems in teaching: the form was more important than the content, learning by rote more important than understanding, Lack of individual instruction; structure of classes; disciplinary problems. Her library reading. Some students couldn't speak English; transportation to school in winter.

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