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LOLA GAMBLE CLYDE: The college kids that were enrolled were three ofhis half-breed Indian daughters, And my mother always liked Sir James Douglas 'cause she said," Oh my, when the king wanted to knight him he said, 'No I will not accept aknighthood unless my wife is made alady. If she will be Lady Douglas then Pll accept the knighthood. So it was Queen Victoria by that time and Queen Victoria said,"That's fine with me, it will be Lord and Lady Douglas." And he was made Lord and Lady Douglas. And I think that's interesting.
SAM: Did your mother remember teaching the three kids?
LC: Oh, yes. She remembered teaching them real well, yea. My mother taughtmathematics in particular, she said, "They weren't so good at the mathematics but they werearning, lovely, girls. that's good, yea. But that's how we are out in this part of the country.
SAM: I think they understand it maybe better in Canada because the country'sso new.
LC: Oh, I think so. They have more feel for it too. They're all slowerpaced up there And you go all antique shops, and it's aU historical things. Wednesday afternoon they close shop-it's vacation. And you go in the middle of the afternoon around four o'clock and the shops are locked-they're having tea and they don't want to sell you anything. in'there? And thlnk that's real interesting VicWia|has lots of Scotch people, you know, many, many Scotch in Victoria. And they all boast about the Gordon Highlanders, and about Ridge, how Admiral Fosch said to Canada's great General Bing ,he said, "Can Vun Ridge be taken?" And Bing said, "Let the Gordon Highlanders support me on my right and we'll takeV£«»*y Ridge in the morning." And the Gordon Highlanders supported him on the right and they did. They took V^ Ridge. And they slaughtered the Canadians, these royal Gordon Highlanders, they just slaughtered them, the Gordon Highlanders were just almost wiped out. But in Victoria there were many Gordon Higfranders' relatives, you know.
SAM: Was this during World War I?
LC: Yea, during World War I when they took Rldge. And one of thereal nice quotations that I had given at several memorials was Lord John. They had agreat memorial at Aberdeen in memory of the Gordon Hghlanders who'd been killed at Ridge. A this was quoted at memorial exercises, it was, "They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old. Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we shall remember them."
SAM: Who was this written by?
LC: John Btnyon. Lord Jo Binyon . Hefor the Gordon Highlanders that were just slaughtered at Ridge.
SAM: Would you like to tell me something about Snow on the River? About whatyou think is the
LC: Yea, well even as Buffafo Coat is the story of Carol'sfather's people, of Dr. Watkins and his people, Snow on the River is the story of Carol's father's people. It starts with the three brothers who came to Opportunity or Moscow, Idaho from Caitheness County, Scotland. And of course, Caitheness was the northernmost county of Scotland. And it told about the bitterness and the rugged lives they had ^ there. So each of these three sons vowed that they would go out into the world and make afortune and leave the country. So they came to America, each with his own dreams, his own capabilities, his own desires, and his own destiny. And they came to Opportunity or Moscow, Iuaho. And they went to live with alady naraed And the story l8 that she was good Scotch Udy and she cQuid make - an the old Scotch food. Carol to he dose enough they trom the church Lampman house over on First Street that was the hoarding house. Imoved It down there to the Grove Apartments on the corner of Van Buren and Third Street because that was anice, strategic place, And most of us rememher when it was called University Club and Abe Crushuman and those young faculty people lived there.
SAM: Was the woman who ran the place really Scotch?
LC: she was She was aMrs.McKie But the names enough, so. ..And she always says, "Idon't try to make history of this, they're just figments of my imagination. But you can say that they remind you of somebody if you want always say, "Well, Carol, this little girl that Innlc* , girj. cnat looks at us across the years and across the pages of this^ust reminds rae an awful lot of So that's why Ialways say is the story of CaroLs own life and her father's people. So the three carae to board with Mrs. McAllister. And of course, Angus was the studious one. wanted to be a minister aanda nhee'da rruunn enough money and he couldn't become aminister. And the handsome handsome. And he was goin' to make afortune-he wanted gold and that was all. And WUHe the youngest was very carefree and charing, altogether charing was just in love with life and he doesn-t want to try to change it, he just wants to enjov. it. But since Mrs. McAllister was a good Scotch lady she saw that all her hoarders goJufthere to the Presbyterian Church every Sunday. And it wasn't too hard for her to their religious training and maybe it was just Dr. Watkins' two beautiful daughters^ecause right across the street from the Presbyterian church lived Dr. Hawkins. Does she call him Hawkins in this book or not?
SAM: No, I think he has another name.
LC: Ithink he has adifferent name. Well, anyway, Dr. Watkins andhis two beautiful daughters- the oldest one was Abby. She was dark with dutiful, soft, dark velvety eyes with lots of dark brown curling haV~ very, very talented musician. Her music teacher said to her when he heard her play, she put such feeling into it, he said, "Oh, you must learn to control yourself because your music will destroy you." But Angus who would loved music sit in his boarding house and listen to the strains of all this high class music drifting down, and he fell in love with the lovely, lovely Abby. And Willie, who was more carefree and happy, fell in love with the younger daughter. Her name was Connie. But Connie had eyes only for the dark, handsome Douglas. But Douglas wasn't going to be marrying any. girl right away. And Ishould just let you take the tape because all the rest of it's on the tape.
SAM: Well, I can take it from tte tape then.
LC: Yea, because it's all right there on the tape. And I really do abetterjob on the tape. Ishouldn't. ..Let's see if Ican get that. . .(Break)
SAM: I'm thinking about now as far as what really happened. There are differentdescriptions that I've read in different sources.Now one thing that I'm wondering about is do you think that there was any motive at all for what Steffen did?
LC: No, Ithink not. Ithink that he was just, he was mentally disturbed.And nowadays they probably would have known what to do. They could him have taken him and given him tranquilizers and helped. But in those days they didn't know anything to do.because Iheard people tell, other people who knew him as ayoung man Aid he wasn't just alittle boy as the book makes him. The book makes him avery sympathetic,young, youngster. But he was abig husky man-he was about thirty-nine years old when he kil!ed Dr. Watkins. And Iheard aman tell how he had worked up in the woods someplace with him, and he had great arms-great, strong, muscular arms-and that he had been abutcher and that he often cutPthe meat with a meat cleaver. And he'd taken the meat cleaver and tried to kill some of the men around the lumber camp. And I think he was a dangerous man.
SAM: But what's this when it says on his tombstone, that beautiful rubbingthat was made, it says, "He feared not." How do you take that to mean?
LC: Well, Ithink that there were some suicide notes left. The contents ofneither of them were ever really made public.^lt was said that on an envelope in his pocket they found anote that said, "If the inevitable comes, I want to be buried at Pullman." And that he had written a list of men^and also on that list was aman named Jolly and aman named Held. Underneath them he wrote: "I didn't get the right ones after all." So he was just beside himself and carried grudges. And he wanted to strike out at somebody. But one of the great tragic things Ialways thought was how this bunch of men.instead of trying to coax him out and get him to adoctor for help, how on this lovely Sabbath afternoon they went down and threw open all the hardware stores in town, got out all the muskets and guns and loaded themjand about sixty men or more formed asherrif sposse' and went dashing out through the wheat. It was August, and people who saw the wheat the next morning said it just looked like a thrashing machine had been There were through it. just so many people trampling and shooting at the house. And after they'd shot for about half an hour little old grey-haired mother who must have been so sick with fear and worry anyway, finally she came to the door and held up awhite dish towel and waved it and said, "You can stop shooting now-he dead." That seemed like such aheart—ipping thing, when you think°what she'd gone through. And the this worry in the mother's heart over son. And to have it end that way. And Iknew some of the men who took part in that hunt, that Sunday afternoon hunt. And some of thereafter they got old and looked back on it said themselves, 'Well, I'm not proud of my part in it. I'm sorry that I ever had any part in it.'J And I should think they'd all feel that way, if they could have gotten ahold of him and taken him peacefully and hand-cuffed him and subdued him and gotten him off for treatment.
SAM: Do you think that they made any effort to try 'to say come on out withyour hands up?
LC: No, Idoubt it. Inever heard anything to that effect. That he was adangerous wildman, there was a lot of the young men around town and they threw open. . .He shot the deputy shetiif ,toe , aman named Cool and he's buried down in the Genessee very fine man. And he shot the horse out from under him. And it seems, looking back at least, all these years later, it seems that maybe the have taken him without.
SAM: Do you think maybe what it was, they just wanted to be rid of him?
LC: Well, I suppose that was the simplest way. In those days people who hadUp mental problems werenltjlooked on with much sympathy. They just thought get em out of the road, get em out of harm's way where they can't hurt anybody else or themselves, and it was just the simplest answer in the frontier days, Ithink. They didn't know about psychiatry and tranquilizers and...
SAM: Iwonder though if some of this stuff they talked about him, how bad hewas or mentally unbalanced, Iwonder if a lot of that wasn't after the fact. Imean Iwonder if he was really aworry to the town before that.
LC: Well, Ijust doubt it. Ijust doubt that he was that much of aworry.The only incident Iever heard of besides the doctor killing-killing Dr. Watkins-was when he'd taken the butcher's cleaver to these men up in the lumber camp.
SAM: So all the business in Buffalo Coat about Watkins sending him down toOrofino and this other business,hiding through town fast-all that's fiction.
LC: Well, Ijust wouldn't really know, but Ithink probably it is. Carol hasmade him avery sympathetic figure in the book, putting the flowers on and Jenny sgrave, rather adisturbed young youngster, but he was amature man and he was abig, husky man, so there may have been a little more justification in the men trying to subdue him before he did do anymore damage.
SAM: What did people say when they were trying to give some kind of amotiveto his anything idea that he'd been beating his mother and Watkins had told him to lay off?
LC: Well, Im not sure about that.
SAM: Iwonder if people said it-if that was an old story that went around.
LC: Yes, there was instability in the boy all along from childhood on, there'dbeen alot of instability in him. And of course in those days they didn't quite know what to. ..(Her son BOB CLYDE enters) Oh, I'm just telling him about Buffalo Coat, we're still Buffalo Coating, Bobby.
BOB CLYSE: Half Moscow's unstable.
SAM: Yeah, but not half of Moscow goes out and kills people because of it.
LC: Well, that's true.
SAM; Not yet anyway.
BC: Well, half of them need to be killed.
LC: I didn't tell him that Tom father took part in this hunt and hehad run this hardware store and he. . .how BC: Did you tell him about'old Collins hid" out and sent his deputy out to get him?
LC: Oh, no. That's better left unsaid.BC: Oh, is it?
SAM: That doesn't sound better left unsaid, that sounds good.
BC: He sent the deputy out to get him and the deputy got shot.
LC: Well, the descendants are still!here in town, you know, sothat part. I should review the part about how Tom grandfather was quite a good engineer and that sort of thing^and apluW . So he just whipped out his slide rule and did alittle measuring, and measured and he said, "It was my bullet that killed him." You see, they took ^ride in it instead of the. . .
BC: Did you tell him about how Tom Wall's grandfather plumbed the houses ofill-repute?
LC: WeH, we won't get that on tape, Bob.
SAM: The a good sounding story.
BC: History isn't any good unless you have. . .
SAM: That's the way I feel about it too.
LC: Well, in the book in the church, theywanted to de-frock him because he had gone down and done some plumbing in this house of ill-repute. And of course this house of ill-repute is the big old apaatment house down there right west of the electric railroad, what we call the electric railroad there on A Street. Well, there's a big old house just west of it on the north side of AStreet. And that was the house of ill-repute, right there. And that was where the man was down fixing the plumbing. But he was ruling elder of our church, too.
SAM: I see.
LC: Uh huh. But someone said, "Well didn't they think those ladies had on.need for some indoor plumbing?"
SAM: Well yeah.
LC: Carol brought that part out but she doesn't say it was Tom's grandfather,but we just happen to know it was.
SAM: Well, this story about the sheriff not doing anything, you don't have touse the name, but there's two versions of that-thafs apoint in the whole incident that's not clearnthe way they tell it. And neither version has him not doing anything.
SAM: But it's a real confused part of the event.
LC: Yeah, well it seems like Mb Cool was the deputy sheriff and he rode upabout ' Ithink, and met him upiwhere the courthouse ia now, up thereto head him off. And Ithink he's the man that shot and broke the horse's leg. And Steffens abandoned his horse and ran on out through Swede town and on out through where the fairground now is to his home out there.
SAM: And he also shot Cool at the same time.
LC: Yes, uh huh.
SAM: And idea that the sheriff sent Cool out after him?
LC: Well, Iwouldn't know. That's always been one of the questions around that.That is, why didn't he go himself instead of sending. . .
SAM: Did the sheriff lead the posse that went after him?
LC: I think he was probably there, yeah.
SAM: Were there leaders of it? Iimagine there must have been.
LC: Oh, Iimagine so. It seemed like it was all the leading businessmen thatwere availalle around town. 'Cause Mr. McFarland was there KEd ;he was a ruling elder of the Presbyterian Church, and he ran the big hardware store and plumbing shop there on the corner of Third and Main where the First National Bank now is-he ran abig, big hardware store there. And he opened it up on Sunday and got out guns and ammunition and so off for them.
SAM: Did Cool's family feel pretty bitter about it . about whathappened?
LC: Inever knew the family and Inever got to talk to any of themthe grave down at Genesee. Of Cool-he's buried there, uh huh. They had from Genesee.
SAM: Well, if we backtrack a little bit, as far as you know the details or you'veheard them, how did the shooting itself of Dr. Watkins take place? We've pretty much got the last part where they surrounded the house, but what was the scene for the shooting?
LC: Well, it's just about as it was in the book, l^as Sunday and he wasdriving in the buggy. He didn't have any little boy in with him, but he was coming back from a call out in the country. And he met the Steffers boy. The Steffen* boy was really out looking for the other men r.ther than Dr. Watkins, but he met Dr. Watkins and he killed him. And It seemed like most of them said it was there coming do third Street. And the horse knew the way down to the office, and the Dr.'s office was there on Second Street-right under where you live, it was right there in that buiUing, uh huh. And the horse carried tRe body and the buggy over there and stopped in front of the building.
SAM: Did they say that Steffen* said anything to Watkins before he shot him?
LC: Well, there was nobody left to tell it if there was, you see. Um hum,there was nobody left to tell, . But he did meet George Creighton on the street. And George Creighton is" of course^the man that founded Creighton's store there. And he shot him in the arm.
SAM: And then from there didn't he go to get water? Is that what happened?Something happened. After that, who did he meet after that?
LC: After Creighton? Well, Idon't remember tint. What did Isay on the history?Did I give you one of those sh eets or not? (B k)
SAM: The way you underhand it Collins and Steffen* never exchanged shots.
LC: No, Inever heard that,'Coursethe big question was that he let him get away.
SAM: Okay, but then it says that Jones was pumping water when Steffeu arrived."That looks like good water," Steffen said and asked for some. Then be said, "What in the hell is the matter with folks? I understand a warrant has been issued for my arrest. " And then Collins came along to Jones' place at that time. And that's where an incident happened there. Did you hear about Steffen saying that sort of thing at Jones' place?
LC: Yeah, uh huh, at Jones' place. And it seen« like Jones—Jones lived onout there s@meplace, I don't even know where Jones lived.'^Leaving Cool, he road on toward the courthouse, just beyond the courthouse square. Steffen was accosted by Joe Collins who for some reason permitted him to escape." Now that's the only thing, see, they say there, yeah, Alittle farther on encountered Sherman Mix anda running it fight- now these Mix's were in on it—"and a running fight ensued, Steffen shooting at Mix four times, missing him. Mix took several shots. The last breaking its Oh yeah, Mix shot the horse, then deserted his horse and ran to his mother's house which was within a quarter of a mile!' Yeah, that's it, the house. . .
SAM: You think Mix did shoot his horse probably2I think so,
LC: Oh yeah, that was probably it, um hum, I'd just forgotten, yeah.
SAM: Well, there are so many people involved in . . .
LC: Yeah, that's right.
SAM: Well, Iwonder how long they besieged that house and shot at it?
LC: Well, as Iunderstood it, maybe three quarters of an hour that they shot.They all, they lay down in the grain fiel*,and as they all said the grain fields were just flattened like athrashing machine had gone through it-there were so many of them. And they lay down in the ditch; there was abig ditch, Paradise Creek flows right through there, yeah. And they lay down in the ditch and shot up at the house. And they took cover. And'quiteTlittle shooting went on and he-there was alittle balcony upstairs, out through the window ,and he could shoot out through the windowjbver that balcony. And then after awhile the mother came out; there was no shots from the house, and pretty soon the old mother came out and waved awhite dishtowel at then and said, "You can quit shooting now. He's dead." And that's about the way it was. And most of this history in there, John Naylor and my father and Henry McGregor and those early people wrote that up for the men that came through the country, you know. It's written in the^oldtime language, and those were the people that worked on that History of North Idaho.
SAM: Do you know where those people came from that put together that Historyof North Idaho, incidentally? Idon't mean to get off the subject, but I'm just curioua.
LC: No, Idon't. Ithink they came up some place from California maybe, thatput it together. But they had the same thing. They came in and had people work on the history, you know, and it least they got it down. And then they charged them if they got apicture and the story of your life, you know—then you paid $25 for that.
SAM: Did you pay for just a story? Your story?
LC: Yes, even for your story, uh huh. And the big pictures, of course, theycost alot more. And then it was taken for granted you'd want to buy one of the books. And Ithink the books were $25. But at Uast they got it down, and that's really what Ithought was important, looking back over it. Otherwise there-d have been none of that early day history.
SAM: What do you thlnk are the shortcomlngit fall short? Do you think it's as far as accuracy goes or where are it s weaknesses?
LC: Well, there wasn't much research went into it. It was just each ofthe elderly gentlemen remembering how it was. And memory is rather fallible, you knqw, over the years. But Ithink each one remembered in his own way. And they w«?e all smart, educated men that worked on it. My father was aminister and well-trained and well-educated; Mr. Naylor was educated and wrote many, many fine historical articles later; and Henry McGregor was aschoolteacher and they were from an educated family. They were all very well-educated for those times because they'd all come in from other places to Mosocw. So Ithink it's about the best-it's the only record in fact that we have of the early days. So at least they got it down. And they wouldn't have got it down these young enterpifeing men hadn't come in and seen the thing as it was. I think that that was real important.
SAM: Do you think at the time, was there some disagreement over the ...
LC: Oh yes, there was, there was. My mother who was avery retiring lady,she thought it was ridiculous of my father to write up astory about his wonderful accomplishments, you know. But my father had more of afeeling for the history of it-he thought this was agood idea to get this down, of how the thing had been. But my mother thought it was, she didn't believe in any self-glorification.And why she said, "All these people, if they had $25, $50, whatever it took, they ^have their picture taken and put in the book." She took rather adim view of any kind of publicity. And there was that difference of opinion among them. Some people thought it
SAM: Who wrote the portraits of the people? Did the man write it him
LC: Yes, he would come, the man came and talked to them about what they haddone, where they came from and so on. ^Then these young men wrote them up. If you notice how they're all very glamo rously written abont what fine, upstanding-there wasn't arascal in acarloadi They're all upstanding gentlemen. And they change the wording alittle from one to the other, but many of the same words are used.like "outstanding," "fine-citizen,""their zeal and energy have gotten them far," and how they've improved their homesteads and there's quite asimilarity among them, although they had made a little effort to change some of the adjectives, but the same general pattern applies to all those worthy pioneers.
SAM: It's funny. I wonder how they were even able to tell who was who becausethey came from the outside? Iwonder if they just went around and talked to everybody?
LC: Yes, they did. They went arou nd and talked. And like Isay, the mainqualification you had to have was thatjflf;;/ bucks, you know. But I'm glad they did it.
SAM: Oh yes.
LC: It, so glad they did it. Otfiwise we would have no record of those earlydays. And I am intrigued by the early elections. They even know who ran and on what party,^what the issues were, ari who was elected, and that's all invaluable. It'd be awfully hard to trace those records if we didn't have the big old book to look in.
(End of Side A)
LC: And there were many, many old books of records ,'cause many years laterwhen the discussion came up about how did Moscow get its name-were there any Russians here? Iwent through lists of voters in old books at the court house, just book after book, trying to find a Russian name, m someone who had homesteaded here or had voted in the general elections. And I couldn't find a Russian name4-there wasn't a Russian name among them. So it was lucky we had those records 'cause we could go back and trace.
SAM: What do you think about the general North Idaho history that they have inthere? Was that written somewhat by local people?
LC: Well, Ithink at least helped with it, uh huh. But thefinished thing, of course, was done by these outside yamng men who'd come in and got it in shape.
SAM: Was there anybody from around here who was sort of head of the localeffort to get this thing going?
LC: Well, I've just forgotten, but I imagine, I'm sure that my father andMr. Naylor and Mr. McGregor. . .
SAM: Were right there.
LC: And Tom Tfney, and all those people had afinger in the pieand probably the newspaper editors. We had some quite outstanding men. There was a Mr. Jolly ran the newspaper here, and they also ran a law firm called Good and Jollv whithwas a good name for a law firm. And they were very, bright capable people.
SAM: Boy, you know, dad, Jay Woodworewrote up a reminiscenceof the Jollys-Mrs. Jolly and Mr. Jolly. Now was he the one that was thin or one of them was thin and one was really heavy.
LC: Yes, um hum.
SAM: And he said the guy was really salty. Very salty tongued,
LC: Yes, that's right. They were smart. The Jolly men were real, smart. Andmany years later I knew a daughter who was on the debate team at the University of Idaho, and she inherited her father's skill with words. She was a good debater.
SAM: Did you ever hear about the debate that he had with the other newspaper?Ithink it was the Star, when the Star came in,that they didn't get along at all.
LC: Oh, yes. No, they had big wars going on-yes, yes. Yes, I'll say.
SAM: Do you remember anything about that at all because he mentioned an incidentor two--Wo dworth did-w|ere they back and forth in the papers.
LC: Yes, well, I remember my father went into politics in 1895. Of COUrse Iwasn't born then, but I've often heard them tell this story. And it was during that time there was great wa. between the Governor McConnell faction and the Willis Sweet people. And in those days the state legislatures elected senators, since- then its gone to the people. And my father had gone down from Latah County^and they were very anxious for him to vote for Willis Sweet. Well, my father had been brought here by Governor McConnell and he was very_ friendly with Governor McConnell, and my father voted for Governor McConnell. So when he cama home there was great repercussions over that.And the followers of Sweet brought some kind of charges against him that he did alittle drinking. And as I say, since when was it wrong for Irishmen to take a little snort of whiskey? But my father, anyway, could prove that any whiskey he'd ever bought, he'd bought it for his hired men. And one of the papers ran abig_ headline saying, "Daniel Out of the Liar's Den"~that he'd been tried to be excommunicated from the church, you see, but he was vindicated. The jury found him not guilty of any of these things they'd brought against him.
SAM: Well, what were they bringing against him, that he drank?
LC: Yes, that he did this little drinking, uh huh.
SAM: That was an offense? That wasn't illegal then, was it?
LC: Well, I don't know.
SAM: Im wondering what it was they were. . .
LC: Maybe it was for the Presbyterians—they were just trying to bar him from thePresbyterian Church.
SAM: Oh, I see.
LC: However, the newspap er ran this big_ headlines and the title was "DanielOut of the Lion's Den," he'd been vindicated.
SAM: Oh, I see, that's what it was.
LC: Yes, he was vindicated.
SAM: Well, was this business between Sweet and McConnell, were both ofthem trying to become part of the legislators?
LC: Yes, they wanted to be United States Senators. Willis Sweet Hall, yousee, is named fo* Willis Sweet. And they were rivals for the senate. And it almost hung on the one vote that my father cast against Willis Sweet and for Governor McConnell. And Governor McConnell became senator. And after that, they passed it then so the people themselves,never again would they allow one man's vote to sway an^ election. So the direct election came as a direct result of the Willis Sweet-Governor McConnell fight. That was one of the far reaching effects. The other effect, not quite so far reaching, was the trial about Daniel in the lion's den. So you see, they had their political squabbles in those days, too.
SAM: Oh, I'm sure they did. As I understand it, as I remember John Piattwrites in his book on Genesee, they took politics much more seriously.
LC: Oh yes, they'd go in on election day and carry off the election box ifthey were afraid somebody had gotten in that they didn't want, why the ballots just disappeared, box and everything. And it's whoever carried the biggest gun and provided the most whiskery?election day.
SAM: Are there cases of the boxes getting taken away in this county,do you think?
LC: Well, that's all before my time, and like I say I've been on the electionboard forty-two years and they've never gotten away with my election box, I'll tell you. We ran a tight shipL
SAM: I can't believe that could happen with you there.
LC: No, no. Forty-two years of it and we ran atight ship and nobodfvlotto vote that wasn't qualified,Nobody stole the election ballots, feut in the ol ftfty years earlier, Ithink maybe that went on all right, I think maybe it seemed like election day was quite a good day drunk and they finally passed some kind of a state law that*saloons had to be closed on election day, -So people wouldn't get drunk and would know what they were doing when they went in to vote.
SAM: I suppose that was one of the things that they were buying votes withwere drinks, right?
LC: Yeah, they'd get em a little bit drunk and^they A tell 'em who to votefor. Yeah, I think so. Whoever put up the most and the best that was.
SAM: Well, in this fight between Sweet and McConnell, do you remember any ofthe people who were on either side at that time besides your father being for McConnell?
LC: Well, the Davids were on the Willis Sweet. Mr. David, the father ofthe David boySwere all Willis Sweet people, great followers of his.And it was pretty well divided. The town was pretty well divided, (Jut my father maintained that he'd been elected to elect the senator and that was within his jurisdiction to vote as he saw right. But the followers of Willis Sweet seemed.to think that whom the majority of the people had wanted should be elected. But that was problematic—they didn't know whom the majority did want. And my father maintained he'd gone down there to elect.
SAM: Was he selected by the party or. . .
LC: By the people. He was elected by the county.
SAM: As a representative, I see.
LC: Yeah, he was elected, um hum, to go to Boise. And then in turn thestate legislators, in those elected United States Senators.
SAM: Was this a long-standing disagreement between Sweet and McConnell?
LC: Yes, it went on for a long, long time, um hum. It went on for many, manyyears. There were the two fact in the Republican Party. It was all within the Republican Party--they were both Republicans.
SAM: Was there any real difference between them except the personalities oftwo different leaders or were there other things involved;
LC: Oh, I don't think so, I don't think there was much difference between them,you know, I don't think *here was much difference between them.
SAM: So it was just personality.
LC: Yeah, it was just personality conflicts—that's right.
SAM: I wouldn't be surprised though if he did have some strong effects on thesocial—who was 'friends with who.
LC: Oh, yes, I think it was, I think it was, yes, uh.tmh, yes.
SAM: Did you rfather actively hefep McConnell on other occasions in politcalundertakings?
LC: Oh yes, oh yes. Up until Governor McConnell quit. We always-they hadabout great goings on among 'em political matters. My father was a great believer and agreat supporter of Senator Borah. And he was always writing him letters telling him to try and end the World War Iand get tte boys home and so on. My father was agreat admirer and agreat supported of Senator Borah.
SAM: Well, speaking about Willis Sweet Jay Worfworth-I've haven't had achanceto read the document yet that he wrote, but he wrote down the story about how the university came^ and he talked about. . .Sweet as being abrilliant but eccentric, and sort of lazy kind of aguy who had real drive, but yet was very lazy-was sort of a real mixture, and a character too.
SAM: What do you knowof Sweet? Or what did you hear about the way they talkedabout him? Was he the key man in bringing the university to Moscow?
LC: Oh, Ikind of doubt that. He always took great credit for it, you know, butIdoubt that he was key man any more la had old W. J. Brigham from Lenville. He was credited with introducing the bill that established it. And my father was in the legislature that year, and he was for bringing it to Moscow. And there were many, many people beside Willis Sweet. Governor MuConne.il was one of the people. Old Charlie Munson was agreat friend of the universitfsand helped get it established.
SAM: Well, what about. ..Do you know what they say Sweet's role was? Imean,he was supposed to, what he do, he went down and lobbied for it?
LC: Yes, Ithink so. Ithink that that was about the sixe of it. But they wereall, everybody from here-'Charlie Munson always liked to tell the story about how they divided the state according to the needs. They put the insane as ylum over at Blackfoot because they deeded one and th put the penitentiary Boise because all the crooks lived in Boise, but up at Moscow we were so ignorant they gave us the University of Idaho. And that was a standing joke with Mr. Munson and Governor McConne 11 and all of them . That was the standard way. Of course the sal thing was to keep north Idaho paying taxes in Idaho and not goi^g off and joining up with Washington and sending all the good mining property to pay taxes in Washington mines in Idaho. And Ithink it was sort of atrade off among the legislators they let Boise be the capital and we could have the university. I think it was a political trade, all right.
SAM: Um hum. And it worked, that's what. . .
LC: And it worked. That's what we wanted and we needed it. And I think that'sthe way it went, all right. I think that. . .
SAM: Can you remember any rare, of who Sweet's friends were and besides the Davidswhat the Sweet faction was?'£ause I'm trying to figure out and get the names straight of who was on which side in the disagreements that they had.
LC: Iwould say that the Naylor family were with Governor McConnell, I'd saythat all the Naylors stuck with Governor McConnell. And they were influential, all of them bright, smart people. And of course the two newspapers, and you'd have to look that up in the newspapers to tell there was that division. The Jollys though, the Jolly newspaper was for McConnell.
SAM: I see.
LC: Uh huh.
SAM: Sothe other one must have been against him.
LC: Yeah, that wou!S be against him, uh huh. But they were two in this smalltown—how they made a living. . .
SAM: Are there any stories about their disagreement itself I mean aboutface to face kind of stuff between McConnell and Sweet.
LC: Yes, I think so, I think so. I think there were plenty of it—plenty ofthat it. Well, I would say I think maybe the newspapers would have more of (Break)
it in along about 1895. Pete Orcutt was a good editor and he wrote onthis same paper that defended the McConnell faction "Pete Orcutt. He's the man that wrote about "Daniel Out of the Lion's Den" and so on. And he was real smart-^he wasareal sharp man, and everything he wrote was _real good. And he was real clever. And then there was somebody else, let's see—yes, I remember my father telling that down in Boise one person came up and tried to hit him with his cane. And that's my good friends father, Mabel Gno, you know, her father was a man named Rod Drury, and he was down lowre, ihie picked up his cane and struck my father with it. He was so wild because he hadn't voted for Willis Sweet. And he was a great, big tall man, and a big husky man. And I've often heard my father tell that story, and it was interesting to us because his daughter and myself became such very close friends over the years.
SAM: I suppose he and Mr. Drury weren't very good friends after that.
LC: No, no, noi, that was no, no, that was the hoy of that.remembering
SAM: Did he ever talk about*what went on down there at the legislature, some ofthe things that happened, or like what they thought, how they managed to to get this deal through/get the university ?
LC: Well, it seemed like it was a trade-off, allright. That they traced withthe Boise and southern Idaho—if they weren't careful, they'd just secede from the state and that they'd take the mines and their good agricultural land with 'em and pay taxes over in Wahington. (break)
SAM: iwocatholic Irishmen(standing on the street outside of ahouse of ill-repute)-
BC: And pretty soon Protestant minister comes walkin'down, looksover his shoulder coming down the street and he slips in the door, And he says,(whispering) "Aye Pat, look at that, isn't that terrible?" Pretty soon the Mormon bishop came walking down the street, looked up and down, slipped in the do©i And he said, "Hey Pat,lookithere,isn't that terrible, that terrible And pretty soon a Catholic father walked down the street, whistling and singing,and opened the door and walked right in--never look right or left. And the Irishman says to him, "Hey Pat, there must be somebody sick in there." So that's all on it. . .
SAM: I might as well tell you now what that one is. . .(Break)
BC: And Creighton said Peterson,"Aw he's just a cross between asonofabitch and a Swede." So Peterson says, "I'll be darn, he's related to both of us then-" That's supposed to be a true story.
LC: I think that is true. Old Klaus was quick on the uptake. He was smartas the dickens, and quick on the upbeat.
SAM: When Gus tells that story about the shooting on the Twenty-one Ranch andShorty Hill, did he tell that Shorty Hill was involved in the shooting itself? Had something to do with, you knor, firing the shots?
BC: No, he never fired a shot. He was bringin' a herd of horses in off therange someplace, into the Twenty-one Ranch and saw, he was up on a hill bringing this herd of horses in and he saw .. . Isn't that right, Mom?
SAM: Well, I saw, I went and looked it up in the History of North Idaho andthere is a Short Hill who was a hired hand, and that whole business.
LC: Well^norty Hill is what thay meant. They called him Shorty was Shorty Hill.
SAM: That trial though, they found innocent, and it shocked the people,andthey were convinced that she had done it, I think Short Hill was tried too for something that had to do with that, that had to do with the same case.
BC: Yea now you 'just take these to some line shack that they had down there," andyou don't come back for six months or maybe never" whatever the score.
SAM: But you never heard of Short Hill gettin g in trouble for that? I meanhe was nevor r. ied as far as you heard.
BC: No, I never that. Uncle Gus never said that he was ever tried.
SAM: And you know that story about Ed Hill getting hung? There was this bookout-have you see this Tales of the Palouse? Just this guy wrote, I don't know how he put it together, but was I think a reverend in Whitman County, and it hasn't been out for very long, but he's got the story of that hanging.
LC: Oh, he does.
SAM: Yeah, that they came in after him.
LC: Yes they did.
SAM: I'm not sure if in his story whether they came in after Ed Hill aswell or not, you know. I think it's maybe pretty much the way Shorty told it-that Ed Hill did something to get them mad.
BC: Was one a black man?
SAM: No, I don't think so. The way Gus told it to me was that the black manin the story was the guy that they sent with. And he escaped from the trainband he was handcuffed to this black guy. He got away and then later came and turned himself in.
BC: Hum. Now I. . .
SAM: I asked him about it again and. . .
BC: Now I thought maybe that he was in jail with the black man, and theywent in to hang the black man, and Ed Hill jaid, "You can't do that," so they hung him too.Did thjt book say whether they used sam as counter balances—hang 'em up
SAM: I don't know.
BC: They just hung 'em both at once.
SAM: I'll tell you, somebody just had the book and I was just really lookin'at it quickly, but I'll take a close look and see, 'cause the story is in there.
BC: I guess it doesn't make much difference whether they counter balancedthem
LC: Tfiy counter balanced them is right. They threvone out each window.
SAM: Oh, they had a single rope?
LC: Yea, they had one rope. They put one on each end and threw 'em both outand killed 'em both.
BC: Which was sort of an interesting way to do it
LC: And I used to go by and see the rope marks there, on the old back in theback. And I guess you can still go up there and see the rope burns where -flu:, burned. . .
SAM: I'm sort of surprised that Shorty Hill never tried to do anything, or theHill family didn't^because they just sound like such a tough bunch.
LC: He threatened a lot. There was one guy he knew, lived over here neighborsto us. named Link Strohrn^ and he walked down the street behind him and curse him . "Wait till I get you out, you old so-and-so. I will riSle you with bullets." And that Link Strohm, even in his old age was scared to death of him, he'd avoid him. He'd go across two. three streets to avoid Shorty Hill. And one time he was down, weren't they down at Gus's, didn't he lasso old Link and try to drag him?
BC: That was the Indian, but he said that he. . .
LC: I thought he lassoed Link too.
BC: Link Strohm was driving from alower place there. And Shorty said he ranout with a gun and he got in the road as they come driving up. He said that the guy stepped on the gas and drove clear out over apile of posts.
LC: Yea, he was scared to death of him. because £ink told me about that. He says"I'll tell you," he called me on the phone and he said,"It's dangerous. He'll down there GUS someday." I said, "No, he won't. Gus is so good to everybody." "Oh," he said, "he's no good, that old Shorty!"
SAM: Was this Link Strohm mixed up in th-.: hanging?
LC: Yes, he'd gone in and helped. He was one of the young bucks around town thatthem went in and helped hang him.
SAM: So this was a lot later when he scared him?
LC: Oh, yeah. Yeah, this was years later, they were both gettin' pretty old. Butold Link called me and told me how scared he was.
BC: Do you know who as a little girl who was quite a good friend ofGeorge Hill?
LC: Who's that.
BC: Virgil Wife.
LC: Oh, uh huh.
BC: And she had pictures of George Hill and soma of the other men there.
LC: And yeah, she told me she used to go with one of the Hill men, one ofShorty's brothers.
SAM: Sv she still alive?
BC: Must have been a son or grandson. . .
LC: Of Virgil Frei? Oh, she's an old lady. She told about how he wore thesebig fancy gauntletrs and took her riding and so on.
BC: She wasn't that old though.
LC: Oh maybe not.
BC: feause Virgil was in the Second World War.
SAM: Is she still around?
BC: Yeah, she lives up in Harvard.
SAM: What's her rime?
BC: Frei. I guess she's still alive.
LC: Oh, yes, I think so. I haven't heard anything of 'em for a few years but...She knew this George Hill and had photographs of him.
SAM: It sure sounded in that other book that really there wasn't any reason tothe hang Ed Hill except maybe he'd got in Way.
BC: And his knife was stickin1 in the 'sheriff. Other than that, why. . .
SAM: Yea, that's true.
BC: It was all just circumsta^ial evidence.
LC: Well, I knew George Horton who had . Jim Lyle's place ahead of Jim Lyle.You know, he was alumni director. In his old age he talked here to me once about it and he said, " I was one of them." And again there was a Mix, one of the Mix's.
BC: One of the Mix's?
LC: Uh huh. Sherman Mix. And he was the one that did the killing of theSteffepsS. Well, Sherman Mix and Ge oige Horton, he said, "We were just young fellahs out there around Palouse." And he said they were going to get up this vigil ante.committee to go and lynch Ed Hill 'cause he'd stolen horses. He said, "I went. I'm ashamed that I ever had anything to do with it." I said, "Well, I shouil think you would be, George." "Yes," he said, "it's bothered me all my life." Because he became quite respectable. But he said, "I was just young. I was only about sixteen and all thetpung fellahs were going to go out and lynch Ed Hill and. . ."
SAM: DL he say that they were going to lynch Ed Hill and not this other guy?
LC: Um hum. No, they were going to lynch Ed Hill for stealing horses,
BC: For stealing horses?
LC: Yeah, for stealing hot*ses*-they were going to lynch him for it.
SAM: Yeah, but they lynched this other guy. That mystery to me.
LC: And he said, "We'd all been drinkin,"is what George Horton said, "Oh,we'd all been drinkinl I was just a young kid. I didn't know any better; I just went along with the crowd. I've been sorry all my life." Shorty Hill
SAM: There was a lot of 'em. Did Gus, has Gus said anything about'trying todefend Ed Hill while he was in jail? Has he said anything about that that you can remember? That Shorty went over to the jail
BC: Well, it wasn't Shorty so much as this George went. Uncle Gus tells it thatgeorge Hill went with a rifle and sat in front of the time came, or haying or something.
LC: Yeah, to keep them from kill
BC: Then they sent Tom Hill who was a brother of Shorty's and George's.and kindof a drinking man. And one of these lodge, members, whoever the lodge was, came along and said, "Come on and let's go have a drink, nothing will happen tonight." And Tom went with him. And then when they were gone drinking the rest of the door down. That's sort of the way Uncle Gus tells the story.
SAM: You mean the lodge just deceived him—got him to leave?
LC: Yeah, um hum.
BC: This one member of the lodge went along and said, "Come, let's go havea drink." And so he went to have a drink and the rest of the members of this lodge, I don't know what—Masonics, or Elks, or whatever iodge they had— just maybe it was a committee.
SAM: So the Hill® were worried that somethin' might happen?
LC: Yeah, they knew somethin' might happen, yeah, that's right, that's right.And everybody knows th t from out around there. And you know there's a little station out there called Ringo Station Butte, out there you know, out on beyond Violajlnere'a akind of a little pointed kind of abutte—they call it Ringo. Ringo Station. Now one of the Hill girls was Mrs. Ringo. She'd dead now too, but that Ringo Station and Ringo Butte—She was a Hill wasn't she?
BC: I don't know. I heard you say that some way they were connected.
SAM: Do you know where these Hills came from, Imean where they grew up aroundhere?
LC: Well, out around Viola is where they grew up.
BC: Right there where George Hill used to farm, wasn't that their original home?
LC: Yeah, uh huh. That was the oijginal.
SAM: Oh, I see.
BC: Or did they come from over on the prairie?
LC: No, right out there. Shorty worked up on the prairie. where he robbedbanks and drove stagefor Felix Warren.
LC: Yeah, yeah, he drove there at Soldier's Meadow^ Then he worked up there forthe Huffe -- I told you that, didn't I?
Lawrence Huff—oh, he was a big prominent lawyer in town. And hesaid when he was a little boy he can remember waking up in the dead of the night and his mother was crying and the father was trying to console her, and she said that Lawrence's brother, whatever his name was, had gotten Daisy in trouble, and Daisy was their hred girl. Papa said, "Oh, never mind, we'll just pay Shorty Hill and Shorty'll marry her. And we'll fix it all up for you." So he did. They paid Shorty, and Shorty married her and she was the mother of those crippled children was Daisy, see. I thought her name
BC: was Rose.
LC: Oh, that was a later one.
BC: Oh, Shorty had two wives, huh?
LC: Yeah, Daisy was the one that was first. And then Shorty wanted his—I heardLawrence tell this whenhe'd been kind of drinking at an alumni banquet. So then when Shorty wanted his social security, Iwent to town to get it for him because I figured he had it comin. So I went to Lawrence Huff— who would you go to? And I said, "Larence, now Shorty should have it, and I don't quite know how to go about it. He's spendin any yearshe worked for different places, and he's worked for us, he' worked for Gus, he worked for you folks". 'Yeah " So I said,"Can you fix it?" Lawrence admitted it. he'd fix it up. Well, he got it for Shorty. He got Shorty his social security, about a hundred dollars a,month th-n, which was a lot of money when they started. But what do you suppose? Lola Clyde—for lookin'after Shoe's legal affairs. So Ijust wrote on that bill, I said, "Lawrence, this was paid in advance, you know." And I fired it right back in the mail to Lawrence. So the next time I saw Lawrence on the street-4aughing his head off. And he said, "Oh, Lola, Iguess you caught me that time." And I said, "You're darn right. I heard you tell 'em abott how indebted you were to Shorty, and I just figured this has all been paid for and forgotten about." "Oh," he said, " I never would have sent it out—it was just ^gitl in the office sent it out." "Well," I said, "I sent in back and Iwrote'paid in advance'on it and you can 8° tell her the story if you want to."
SAM: Hey, Bob, I don't want to keep you, but what io cft~ story about him robbin'bank?
BC: Oh, Idon't really know that there was ever any story to it. He was justin supposed to have been the bank where it was robbed over on the prairie. A lot of these stories were just a myth, you know.
LC: I think they just made *em up.
SAM: Ithink he's the kind of guy that stories get made up about still.
BC: He made em up and Uncle Gus made 'em uptand told us kids just toentertain us. But what was itt There was a bank robbed over there on the prairie someplace so they couldn't find out who did it. But Shorty went out to a rodeo or was riding a bad hoifse and bucked his bat ofWtd out of the hat rim fell awhole bunch of paper dolUcs pflper money. But I don't know; I think it was just one of the stories that Uncle Gus made up.
SAM: Did he drive coach for Felix Warren?
LC: Ch yes.
BC: He was the stage driver for Felix Warren for throughSoldier's Meadows and into Kaniah Lewiston. Then he drove a freight stage or something up thraigh to Orofino too for somebody. Because he was tell in me one time how on the way down,why Came by saw aman standing out in the middle of the Clearwater River. When he went back on his why next run, he told the sheriff or something, and the sheriff went out and got the man. And they brought him inland it was a Chinaman. And they tied his hands with wire and tied his feet with wire and tied him to ropes and throwed him down in the bottom of the river. And the wire on the hands had broke loose and let the rock go and the Chinaman stood up and was standing out there And Shorty said that he had to haul him backlnto Lewiston on the next load. He said, "Oh my ,he stimk#" And that one TgQt 8traight from shorty, he tdd that one himself. So that was either one that Shorty Hill made up himself,
LC: Oh, that probably happened.
BC: Oh, I imagine.
LC: Those were wild days—wild, rugged days. The old man had many adventuresthat's true. Yeah--many, many adventures, yeah.
SAM: It seemed like he was in more interesting places at interesting times.
LC: Yeah, he was kind of footloose and fancy free, yeah.
BC: He worked in World War II down on the, what, the garbagegarbage trucks out of dumP or one of the air bases at Mountain Home.
LC: Yeah, uh huh, and this was interesting, he said, there was a big convoy ofyoung soldiers going out. . .
(End of Side B)
LC: They were going off to die in Europe, but they yelled back, "Did you eversee, did you ever°¥elYC*em you saw the wild man."
SAM: Did you ever know Gus Gamble or Earl Clyde?
LC: Yeah, uh huh. They yelled at him. It'd been years since they'd been here,yeah,
BC: And they were wild men.
LC: And they were, and they. . .
BC: They had a batch of 'em.
LC: And Shorty was among the wildest.
BC: Harley Clark was wild too.
LC: They were young and full of zip.
SAM: These guys were around here too, they were friends of . . .
LC: Oh yeah, they were from the East. . . (Bob Clyde_ leaves)
SAM: Well, couldn't resist it. We were talkin'about Shorty Hill.
GUS GAMBLE: (chuckles) He was a wild old man in his day.
SAM: You know, there's one point about Steffens that I want to ask you aboutstill. And that is that there are two conflicting views in these two articles about how he was killed. One of them—North Idaho History-says that the powder burns indicat ^ that he had killed himself.
LC: Uh huh.
SAM: And here, this article, it says: "One thing for certain, he did notcommit suicide.
SAM: What is it the way you've heard it? Did he kill himself or was he killed?
LC: I think he was killed, all right. There were so many bullet holes throughhim that I'm sure that he was killed. Yea, I don't think he killed himself, but each one of them didn't want the responsibility so they passed it off that he killed himself--but I dotbt it. I think that they kelled him all rightt^.I had some more clippings like that too from the paper. I had one from, I hav- the original, in fact they papered the house with it up there. And when they tore down the old Watkins house here they had papered, newspapers that they had papccd on the walls-and it had the story of the Watkins murder it. And I did have that but I don't have it any more, I don't know what happened to it, but it had come right off the walls of the house. They'd given it to me because I had this collection of stuff. I let somebody have it and I don't know what happened to it.
SAM: How did Mrs. Watkins take it?
LC: Well, she was a very fine, kind, placid lady and a very deeply religiouslady. And I think she just took it in her stride, that it was the Los will and so on I knew her in her old age and she was a very fine cultured lovely lady. She'd come from English nobility. She'd been a descendant of the Lord Woodhouses. And all her glassware, much of her silver was done with a British coat-of-arms on it. And she had come from a very aristocratic old English family. And she was a very kindly. darling lady, Carol's grandmother. So I imagine she just accepted it as part of life. I think Carol has done a good job of her grandmother in teftc two books. I think that's just about the way Mrs. Watkins was. That's the way I always will remember her.
SAM: And do you think that her portrait of Dr. Watkins is also very much the kindof man he was?
LC: Yes, very much. Yes, I do, um hum. I think so.
SAM: Well, now I was thinking about talking about this other incident whichis linked in Buffalo Coat to the same business.
LC: Yeah, Dr..Ledbrook , uh huh.
SAM: Yeah^Ledbrook. and Winnie Booth. As you understand it—as you've Iheard ithowdo you piece together what happened?
LC: Well, there is a difference of opinion, of course, about Dr. Ledbrook.The book makes him lie id ealist, the dreamer, the reformist, thejnan that's always upholding the right and working for the good of the community and that sort of thing, but according to the oldtimers that picture is hardly true. Nearly all the oldtimers said he was a very peculiar man. that he had very peculiar looking eyes. And some of the oldtimers thought he'd hypnotised the minister's little daughter^©thei^ said, "Well, he was a dope addict." And I suppose even in those days they had people that used ittAnd that he had her under the influence of morphine when he killed her. And all I know is just looking at the pictures-and the picture, it shows an older looking man than what Carol paints him in the book. that he's older the picture hanging on the walls of the Gritman Hospital taken of him show his peculiar looking eyes—he had very peculiar looking eyes. And Mrs. Eggan,who ran , a photograph studio in Moscow for many years, told me when the book came out, "Well I have photos here of him and of the little Booth girl. We had taten Winnie Booth's picture and we had it in our window.And it showed her holding a rose and looking down at it, and a side view of her. And it was a lovely picture. We put it in the window for display purposes. And Dr, LeWook came by and stopped and looked, stood and looked at the picture . a long time. And then he came in and he said,'I want you to do a picture of me just standing with a profile view, too. But have me looking at Jenny and have them (br Winnie is her real name) and,put two of them in the window where we're looking right at each other. And Mrs. Egganhwas a very forthright little old lady, said, "We certainly***4 nothing of the kind." She said, "We took his picture but certainly didn't do any such thing as that for him." And there wask great difference of opinion.
SAM: He wanted his picture taken looking the same way as her si
LC: Yes, like he was boking at Winnie, and then Winnie would be looking athim. And he wanted that pose put in the window of her store and she refused to do it. And it was rumored at the time that he left a suicide note and that he asked that they be buried in the same grave so they could be together in death. And of course that wasn't done either. He's buried all alone. There's single stone in a large lot that he bought. .intended it for four people. And he is lying there alone. And his wife did go back to England. And Jem-te of course is buried there at the west entrance to the cemtery.
SAM: What is it. that it says on her stone?
LC: Yes, in her note to her parents she asked that they sing at her funeral"There's not a Friend like the Lowly Jesus" so the stone has that carving on There's not a Friend Like the Lowly esus." And they did sing that at her funeral and it's on the stone.
SAM: As far as what actually happened - can you explain that? Isit that he came out to Big Bear Ridge and got her, is that what happened?
LC: Yes, she was teaching down, I think, at Kendrick. And he came down andgot her Friday afternoon because school was out. And he came there and got her, then she was gone. And then Monday morning the word came back that she was found dead up at Orofino. And the young boy that she'd been going with}who was John Drury, Mabel Ga no's brother she'd been going with him all that winter and seemed very happy. It seemed like a very true romance. It was his ooltunduty to get on horseback and ride around to the neighboring kids and tell them that there wouldn't be any school that morning, that their teacher was dead.
SAM: You know,! tried to understand what happened there. I find the incidentone of the most mysterious. . .
SAM: that I've heard of in local history. .Did you think that there wa?..when you say that there was great difference of opinion, do you think that there was a belief among some people that she went willingly?
SAM: And that it was actually a double suicide?
LC: Well, I think there were some people thought that andother people thought that he had this great influence over her. Some people said, "Well, he was a hypnotist and he hypnotised herjand she went against her will, she didn't know what she was doing." Others said, " Well that he'd gotten her useato ope she'd been sick—he'd doctored her, and that she would go to get, on account of the dope. And that he used that as an inducement to coax her away.
SAM: Had she been sick not too long before that?
LC: Well, I think that that's right about her having broken her leg-- thatwas true, that incident, that she had broken her leg and he had doctored her for it.
SAM: I wonder if that was a very long time previous to her going out to teach?
LC: I think notj I think not too long. I think maybe the winter beforeprobably. Our Grandma Wahl, who was Mary McFarland, she was teaching with a sister, Daisy Booth. They were teaching over at Palouse and Winnie was teaching down by Kendrick. And Grandma remembered very distinctly the word coming that Winnie had been killed-Nand that she took over Daisy's room and taught it while the sister went up to Orofino to hip the father identify the body.
SAM: One thing^when I talked to Laura about thi? -my wife -she was saying thatshe thought that under hypnotism a person wouldn't do something that he didn't really want to do. And I don't know whether that's true, but I think that's a truism, I think people think that that's generally true.
LC: Yes I think so too. I think Carol handlesi beautifully because she opensthe book and the minister's little girl in the pinching poverty of the Methodist parsonage is going out to find the Golden Gate,and eveythinc that's beautiful and wonderful has come in the missionary barrels from the Golden Gate. She knows that thymust Be.8right next to Heaven, Sb she's starting out to find it when Dr. Watkins picks her up along Para-1 is2 Ridge and brings her home. And in the end she leaves her where she's found her Golden Gate, lying in the arms of the man ^he loved, And the room's all surrounded with the buttercups that she and he have picked, the room is filled with the gold of the buttercups of the spring. And Carol brings out to us in a very subtle way that here she'the gold that as a little child she set out to look for. But she was idealized the doctor so much that we all feel so sympath etic with hirn, that le was this wonderful dreamer and idealist married to an unloved and unloving wife as a matter of convenience.^and that herehe's found his true souUmate. And it makes a very lovely story of it.
SAM: Well, if you were going to venture a guess about what really happenedand I think if I was going to venture a guess I might sy that maybe she did go willi.ngly and maybe she didn't really understand what it meant. And maybe he did exercise a great influence over her, but from the way it seemed to me, it seems like there was a very good chance that it was willing on her part.
SAM: Do you disagree with me or agree with me or what. . .
LC: Well, I kind of agree with youCarol has made her a very high spirited, highly intelligent girl you knov—a girl with lots of character and stamina ,defying the narrow constricting views of the small provincial town where she ts. But most of the oldtimers weren't of that opinion. They thought that she didn't have the strength, of character of her sister, that she was more sort of aweak sister; and she might have come under the influence and been half in love with him and gone as an experiment or something. So there is that difference of opinion among the oId people that knew them.
SAM: Weil, you know the view that's presented in the History of North Idahois quite categorical.
SAM: It says she was innocent, she was hypnotised,and he we had no re%on toexpect that he was the kind of man he turned out to be.-he was totally a.
LC: A reprobate.
SAM: Right, and he plotted it and she was simply a victim.
SAM: And I think that's perhaps what it is- just a was going to bewritten down as the accepted. . .
LC: Yes, Ithink that was probably it.BuImong some of the discerningold people, they were of the opinion that she didn't have the great strength of character and the idealism and so on that Carol has attributed to her. and And that he wasn't the dreamer and the idealist reformer that Carol That has made him. ha was really quite tfetched man, maybe alittle bit off, was what some of them felt that he was just a Little bit off the rocker.
SAM: Was he a frequent attender of the services, he was of her faith—shewas Methodist, right?
LC: Yes, her father was a Methodist minister. No, that doesn't seem to holdwater— he didn't identify himself much with the church work at all, no.
SAM: What happened there, first what happened when they found outabout it? I've heard that it caused a great furor in Moscow.Is that. . .
LC: Well, yes. My father had known Reverend Booth over at Goldendale,Washington. 'Cause when my father came home from Victoria he was sent to Goldendale to establish Presbyterian churches And in the Methodist Church at Goldendale was Reverend Booth. And then when my father came to Moscow,to surprise a few years later to Moscow came Reverend Booth with his little family. And my father had very high regard for Mr. Booth. He said, he was a very fine, gentle, quiet person, and my father thought he had a very lovely wife and family. And they certainly grieved. And of course, the good Methodist women, they would be just more than shocked at all this hanky-pan^ going on, you know. they would have And no time for anything like that. And so maybe that is how ing some of the reason came in ,that she was hypnotised mt under the spell of this vile, vicious man* the way they've written it up in the Idaho History . But on the other hand, I know that Carol has colored him greetly from what the oldtimers said about him—that he wasn't the gentle, idealistic reformer that she has painted him. She's made him such a sympathetic figure,.
SAM: I think what I'm looking for is if there, is an ounce of truth in CarolBrink's portrayal of it, enough that it can be viewed as a certain amount of willingness on Winnie's side.
LC: Yes, I think so. I think there must have been some willingness becauseafter all, she didn't have to go. And there must have been some .She must have known he was coming. There must have been something. Although she'd been very happy in the relationship with this young John Drury. He'd been a dashing, handsome, tall young fellow and quite the catch of the been country. And she'd very happy going to the little neighborhood parties and school parties with him all winter. And he was shocked beyond belief that this when this word came—he just couldn't believe it had happened.
SAM: Was this her first year teaching, do you think or. . .
LC: Yes, I think it was.
SAM: So she was really quite. . .
LC: Quite inexperienced.
SAM: Quite young.
LC: Um hxim.
SAM: Now if We take the two events, would you say that thekilling of Watkins had a much strongl: impact in the community at the time , or would you say that th y were both shaking and shattering events.
LC: Well, they were both quite shattering. Carol makes them both happen inthe same year, and I don't think that was just true. I forget what I got out of the history book there.
SAM: I think there was a year's difference.
LC: I think there was a year's difference, one was in May of one year andthe other was in August of the following year, but Carol makes it just the few months from May to August apart, ftit I think that it was a year and two months apart as I remember.
SAM: You told me that the impact of Dr. Watkins' death was so great thatpeople remembered what they were doing on that day.
LC: Yes, yes, they all remembered: "I was just coming in from a picnic outat Moscow Mountain." "I was standing right there on Main Street and I saw the buggy go by, the horse going slowly by with the doctor leaning over in it. and didn't know he was dead. I just saw him leaning there in the car and I thought he was sick." "I saw Gorge Creighton and the blood running down his arm." "I was walkin' dovn the Main Street." Each one remembered what they were doing, A ad I think maybe the death of Dr. Witkins shattered the community more than the killing of Winnie Booth. Both of them were just great tragedies—the greatest tragedies almost Moscow has seeu .fcut I think Moscow took these love affairs a little more in their stride, maybe, than they did something so far-reaching because there were ..many families involved in the shooting— there was there was the sheriff, George Creightm with a bleeding arm, and Dr. Watkins who'd been a power in the community gone.
LC: Did you say to me that you thought that this was sort of comparable toJohn Kennedy's assasination in its. . .?
LC: Yes, yes. It had that impact. People remember where they were when the wordcame that John Kennedy had been shot. You always remember—it's galvanized in your mind—where you were and how it came to you. A::d I think it was the same with this because so many, many of those old people, they can tell you right where there were and what they were doing, and who came and told them. "A boy came riding on horseback and met us. We were coming in in a wagon and he told us." And that has stuck in their memory all these years.
SAM: Then the fact that the next doctor also met an untimely end, that made mevery curious about whether or not Moscow people started thinkin,that the doctors were jinxed in this town
LC: Well, Carol wrote a short story,and shescalled it "The Doctor's Office."And she tells about three—the three doctors that all came to tragic ends there. And they'd all had that office. Dr. Watkins had been on the Board of Regents for the University of Idaho too because he was a well-ecucated, triffd man. He'd been instrumental in getting the first administration building bult. And one of the favorite sayings of the oldtimers was: "Well it sure was good to be on that Boafd of Regents,because they used the very same brick up there that they put in the administration building, Itiey built that doctor's office with the very same brick, you know, so we had that kind of people then too, you see. And they were looking for things like that. But the doctor's office anyway had housed all three of these.
SAM: Is that the Good Food Store now? Is that what it is, is it that buildingright on the end of the block? (108 East 2nd, Moscow).
LC: No, right under where you^re^ Right where you go up the stairs. You knowit's had it sface lifted, you know. There's Naylor's office,and as you go up the stairs to your place, it's the building on the right-it's not quite as high as the other building.
SAM: I see, it's still being used then?
LC: Yeah, it's the Naylor Real Estate Office. Idon't think there's anybodyin it right now 'cause Roy's out* at the nursing home, but it was his office for many years,and that was the doctor's office. And then Dr. Parsom was out looking for gold in the Buffalo Hump country and fell off ahorse and fr ctured his skull, so he was the third doctor tcjdie tragically there.
SAM: Iwas just wondering, do you think that at the time people were saying-I wouldimagine that people would say, boy, there's something wrong with this office, on our doctoa. we're having bad luck . . .
LC: Oh, yes, they did. That's right, yes. They made apoint of it that thiswas a, jinx-that the office was ajinxed place. there was ajinx there at the office—bad luck, uh huh.
SAM: D8 the next doctor move into the same office, do you know?
LC: Well, yes. I think the three doctors that practiced there-first wasthen Dr. Watkins,NDr. Ledbrook and then Dr. Parsons.
SAM: No, Iwas thinking of the one that carne^fter Parsons. Ijust wonderif he moved into that same office or if he found someplace that was a little less jinxed.
LC: I think he went someplace else. I don't know who came after Dr. Parsonsbut I think^they went someplace else.'cause almost as far back as I can remember the Naylors had a real estate office there.
SAM: 'That about the Buffalo Coat portrayal of the widow, the one woman who wascompletely ignored. . .?
LC: Oh yes who'd got divorce the divorced lady who was...
SAM: Oh yes that's right the divorce—that's what Imean.
LC: The divorcee. Well, I remember a lady that lived there on Third Streetin a little house about where the little shopping center is, above the Marketime Drugstore there, about where the shopping center is. She lived there behind a little picket fence and had lovely flowers. And I suppose that was the lady. I.» ve forgotten her name, but I suppose that was the divorcee. And a lot of them were looked upon with suspicion, you know, you took the men for better or for worse;and no matter how much worse they were than you ever thought you stuck right with it to the bitter end. And nowadays I believe in women's lib, I think they're darn lot smarter.
SAM: Do you think that the portrayal that Carol gives to the attitude that asmall town would have towards it divorced women was accurate?
LC: Yes, I do, uh huh. Yes, I think that that's very well done, uh huh. Youjust didn't get divorce" in those days. If you were, you were a fallen lady of some kind.
SAM: It's so hard for me to believe that people could feel that way.
LC: Well, I thinkN in those days they did, though. I think there wasoh,she was a divorcee, goodness, that was horrible. She had fallen from grace.
SAM: I don't know if I've really hit everything on these two cases, butI can't think of anything else.
LC: Oh, I think you have the main things. I think those are all the mainpoints, and those things I've given you are the reactions of these oldtime people because ...
SAM: That's the best thing.
LC: . . .you see, they were still alive when the book came cut. And that's(her daughter), how Mar un all chese pictures and things, how she got the word because she went to the two grandmothers and other old ladies and got all that. And (hen she went to some of the oldtime scrapbooks, and they'd say, "Oh, yes, now there, that's the seamstress. That's Mrs. Mill—she was nine;y-six." She was the seamstress in the story. And then when they talk about the Italians, well those were Johnny Jabbora's people. They weren't Italian, they're Syrians, but she makes it that and that's all right. And the whole way along, they could help pinpoint who these various folks were. I don't have Christine's picture, but you know she had the little servant girl, Christine, just over from the Old Country and she had her there in the house and she liked Christine. Well, Christine worked for me years later when my kids were little. She told me how Mrs. Watkins would hold up a c up— they'd do dishes together—and Grandma'd say "cup"—"cup And then she learned to say it. She go "spoon-*.'-"spoon", you see. And Christine learned to speak English there. And Christine was maybe seventy-five back in '40 but as a young girl she had worked there and she was the Christine of the book. And I didn't get Christine's picture. I should have; he'd dead and gone now«$ut Christine told me many interesting things about them. of them were so sweet about Grandma Watkins—how good she was and how she ran to wait on trt; doctor and how she spoiled the daughters The daughters didn't have to do anything. they went to Portland to the finishing schools and were well educated and lovely. Grandma wanted them to be ladies.
SAM: The picture in Buffalo Coat of Christine is that she's very much part ofthe family.
LC: Oh, yes. Very much part of the family and sie learned all these things,andChristine said Grandma Watkins wanted her to hearn how to do things her way but she also accepted the oldtime ways. "You make us some of your Swedish hotcakes. You make us some of your Swedish sausage, and how do you cook it in your land?" Christine would bring in some of her ways of doing And that things. Grandma Watkins was so kind and so lovely tc her and Christine just worshipped her. Christine, as an old lady here at my house, helpin' babysit my kids, she often talked about what a lovely experience her first years here in America had been living with Mrs. Watkins.
SAM: Did she leave service with Mrs. Watkins to get married?
LC: ves, uh huh, uh -huh. Then she married a man named Olson, uh hih, and thatwas a happy marriage, uh huh. And she had many little trinkets and things that Grandma Watkins had given her, yeah. So that was nice. when I've read Caddie Woodlawn.
SAM: I think maybe we'll talk some more about Grandma Watkins which I haven7tread yet.
LC: Oh, you haven't. Well, you've got to read that 'cause that is GrandmaWatkins. I've got a thing I'm going to give you},or did I give you that sheet?
SAM: Oh, you did. I've got it.
LC: Yeah, get you a Xerox that because that was published right when thebook, when Caddie Woodlawn came off the press. And I think that's awfully well done. I think it's real . . .
SAM: This is the one with the picture of Mrs. Watkins?
LC: Yeah, the picture of Mrs. Watkins sitting there. You see, shewas an old lady then. I think it was about '42, and there she sits. And that is Grandma Watki is just like she looked then. And she was a fine old lady, just a grand, kindly, placid, lovely, darling woman. And she had seen life in many forms and known many sorrows, and she had raised little Carol, you see. And she was a fine old lady. And like I say, she was Carolyn Woodhouse before she married Dr. Watkins. And he was educated at Oxford,I'm sure. They were English and like I say, . many times I've been there and seen the lovely glassware with the British coatof- arms and silver with the coat-of-arms on it. I have a button bracerV and it has a button on it with a British coat-of-arms from her people that Carol gave me. It haji little button that has the little coat-of-arms of the Woodhouse people. And of course, I have all those darling little Haviland cups that I get out. They all came from the Watkins'. wWi Carol left, she wa "going to go to this small apartment down at La Jolla and she said, "I don't want to take all this stuff,".- I said, "Don't sell it to just anybody, sell it to me, I'll buy it and I did. I bought all those little sweet things, and I have the desk where she wrote Caddie Woofllawn. I have just lots of the Watkins' memorabilia around.because I was greatly fascinated with the stories and so were all my children. Yes, I bought hundreds and hundred, of the books and have given them for presents and had Carol autograph 'em for all my grandchildren. And it's really nice, um hub.
SAM: I don' think I . . .
(end of Side C)
LC: More copies have been sold of it than were ever sold ofLittle Women. Isn't that something? It's just grippin£nno matter where you- go Around the world they've read Caddie Woodlawn. red reading in forty-five of our forty-eight states—the children— it,s requlred reading in the grades in forty-five of the forty-eight states.
SAM: I better read it—fast.
LC: Well, it's something like lUaeJiouse on the Prairie. I'm anxious to seethem do Caddie Woodlawn on the television.It'd make a wonderful story. It's a lot like Little House on the Prairie, flh fact I think Little House on the Prairie is based on Caddie Wood1awnsif you ask me. (Break)
LC: Well, Ifn thinking right now of Buffalo Coat. The summer that came out,I must have reviewed it. I think I must have reviewed it maybe fifty times, just th«t one summer. I'd hardly get home and there'd be somebody calling to have me come and do it over again, you know. People were just—just mesmerised by it. And the sexton out at the ceifftery ~ we went to find, of course, the graves, and he said, "It's funny about Winnie's grave, it's lain there all these years and nobody ever went to see it. Every year now there are flowers on Winnie Booth's grave; . More people come out here and ask for those graves. I'm just continually taking somebody to find the graves." And that was interesting, find of course, Snow in the River was well received over the years. I dfn't do so many just right the first year, I did it maybe tv?n times. But one year I did it seventy-five times in the twelve months, I did Snow in the River And they never got tired of hearing it, goodness.
SAM: Do you know anything about what Winnie Booth's family did afterwards?Did they leave the country?
LC: They left the country, and I never kept any track of them. My grandmaWahl knew Daisy Booth and they corresponded for quite awhile. But just at the time Inever thougit to ask her what became of them. But they both had graduated from the University of Idaho and probably the University of Idaho wold have some record of where Daisy went and where she. taught. There might be something there.
SAM: Oh, this girls both attended the school?
LC: Yes, they both attended, uh huh.
SAM: Did Mrs. Ledbrook, was she ever known to pass any kind of verdict onwhat happened before she left;
LC: No, Ithink Carol has portrayed Mrs. Ledbrook just about like she was.There seemed to be so little remembering of her among the old people. Most of them, "Well, we never saw her, we don't know anything about her. We knew him, we saw him, we had him, but we never saw Mrs. Ledbrook." None of those oldtimers that we talked to when the hook came out seemed to ever have remembered Mrs. Ledbrook. So she must have been a sort of a background person, about the way probably Carol has her protrayed 'cause Carol of course, knew them all.
SAM: Well, when you say that yo ^speaking so much about the book Buffalo_Coatwhen It came out, do you think that what it did that it rekindled the discussion of these events?
LC: Oh yes. They all started in remembering when and r.memberina who was whoand it all went on day and night all that summer. that eummer, Ho matter where you went that war. the topic of discussion. And of course, Carols auntie, Elsie e'was alive. And she was amiraculous story-teller woman of ^reat charm and just totaUy 1: ely. And there was nothin, any more fun than to get he- telling about the oldtime stories because she was much, much older than I and she remembered it all firsthand. And she could remember it, and it's too bad she didn't leave a few memoirs because she certainly had it all down firsthand.
SAM: What lo you think-outside of Moscow, Iwjuld imagine that the impact ofthese events was a lot less.
LC: Yes, I think so. I think outside of Moscow-there was no radio, there wasno television, newspapers came out maybe once aweek. I think it was just, it wasn't as gripping as a bank hold-up, you know—that would be t lot more exciting. And I think the people just didn't pay too much attention to it although the Spokesman Review did write it up and it's in the old copies of the Spokesman Review. They wrote it up and it's there. But I think as far as the immediate vicinity, they were all too busy making a living supporting their little families and trying to get along to be too stricken over it. But I do think in the church circles it furnishec m awful lot of discussion for awhile anyway.
SAM: Do you think it was the topic of sermons?
LC: Yes, Ibet it was, I'm sure they'd get up and go on about the insquit esof the town, um hum, I'm just sure.
SAM: I'd like to change the subject -thinking about newspapers, there was thatone paper that I've heard just a bit about that sounded sort of interesting to mer and that was Owing's paper—the Democratic paper. Did you ever hear anything about that?
LC: Yes, well Iknew the Owings family^wings, yeah. The son is still alive.And they called him Sody Owin%, the youngest son, Tom Owings--he was a football player on the Moscow High School and he lives at Boise. And he's remembered in particular because when Mrs. George Creighton died she'd had no children of her own.and the little Owings boy had delivered newspapers and she made him very wealthy. She left him abig part of her fortune- Mrs. George Creighton left the young Tom Owings part of her fortune.
SAM: Was he grown up by then?
LC: the rest of it she left to Cahill, the old banker in Moscow. But Bill Cahill andyoung Sody Owings got the bulk of Mrs. George Creighton's fortune.
SAM: For delivering her newspapers?
LC: Yes, he had delivered tie newspapers. He was acute little red-haired hoyand she'd liked him. And he got her fortune. So that's what we remember " about Tom Owings. And of course being Democratic and Moscow so staunch Republican, i'm sure that Mr. Owings and his Democratic newspaper would be very much in the doghouse in the count y. He would just be beyond the pale, you know. He would be the enemy.
SAM: That's what Iwas thinking. This guy must have been quite acharacterto be able to *rite anewspaper that would be unpopular.
LC: Yea, to be so unpopular in the town of Moscow, yes, he must have done allright;because he ran agrocery store here in Moscow too, the Owing's grocery stora. And I bought things many rimes in there, um hum.
SAM: I will show you. . .(Break .He reads Ms. Clyde a
LC: Wis to ward off evil spirits Iguess with their hex signs on tops of barns.
SAM: What kind of hex signs would they be?
LC: Oh, they'd be like aLor*ainian Crois, the Cross of Lor^ine or an eight-sidedfigure with across in thepiddie. And they were called hex sign to ward off evil spirits and bad things of^your farm.
SAM: When they talk about evil spirits, what kind of spirits do you think theyhad in mind? Do you think they were . . .?
LC: Oh, things that caused disease, I thitk.When cattle got sick, you know, itwasn't that they were suffering from some diaease-there was ahex on them. There'd been ahex put on them and that was abad spell cast over them. If they didn't give down their milk, it wasn't that theyWere ju.t holding up on the milk, it was that there was ahex on themj that these hex spirits had put evil things en them.
SAM: Acording to what he has herein anumber of cases there were witch*.-and believed that there werepeople who were responsible for the spela. Was that true?
LC: Oh yes, sure. Yes, Ithink so. They thought$tpeople cast evil spells.Of course, the very, very old ones probably believed that. Ithink they were getting a little more enlighted by the time they got down to Earl's mother. Inever heard her really believe that. But at least I've heard Grandma, Earl's grandmother, m children's great-grandmother^ tell about hack where they came from,there were these people who could cast evil spells.
SAM: Do you ever remember her telling about the ways that they got rid of theevil spells or turned the spells back on the. . .?
LC: Oh, yes, there was many ways, you know, all the old superstitions,likewe, ycuknow, wa don't believe it, but when we walk under a ladder we'll throw apinch of salt over our shoulder just in case, you know. Why sure, we had to do all those things. And Grandma still had a little belief in some of those. If a black cat crossed the road, why cross yourself and say alittle prayer right away, Aid that would undo the bad sign. And there were many, many different signs that were bad.
SAM: There were signs, Imean like the black cat crossing the road?
LC: Yes, uh huh. Th would be abad sign. And red clouds on the sunrise^that was bad, and of co„rse of all them say that means rain. Well, if they were in acertain shape why! that meant bad things going to-blood, maybe. Bad things like that—bloodshed.
SAM: They were omens.
LC: lots of omens. Lots of things were omens and bring bad luck, um hum.
SAM: Do you think that this was especially strong with Pennsylvania Dutch,fromtheir background?
LC: Yes, Ithink maybe, maybe, uh huh. Ithink maybe the Pennsylvania Dutch weremore so than other people, um hum. So many of the things that have been handed down like breaking amirror-that seemed to be abad thing with th Pennsylvania Dutch. We know it's bad to break anything, but '^tlLlarly bad luck if you broke amirror-bad luck for seven years.
SAM: Well those sound like the cat and the mirror, they are two of the most off,-held superSitions.
LC: Yeah, all around, yes. That's true in all parts of the country, Ithink, um hum.
SAM: What about some of the farm beliefs about stock and things like that. Likehe has some in here, for instance he says, and he has -em in the Journal too: "The first calf dropped by acow should not be ra ised, it should be sold."
LC: Yes, Iknow that. And if the cow held up her milk it was witches and thingswere making her do it instead of just natural meanness. And all kinds of things like that
SAM: He has: "Kill abarn .wallow and cows will give bloody milk."
LC: Yeah, yes I've heard that.
SAM: "If butter is slow in comgin. say: Butter, butter come. There-s no greaterwitch than I. come. Peter's waiting at the waiting for a butter cake. Come butter, come."
LG: Yes, I've heard that. Iheard those and Mieard about droppingin the butter, and that would scare the devils and witches out of the churn. Instead of just knowing that your cream was too cold and warming it up alittlej they thought there was something down in there keeping it and if you threw in a hot iron it would scare away the bad. . .
SAM: Oh, that's really interesting.
LC: Yeah, and women who were having their sick time, they shouldn't make kraut,The kraut would go sour on them and it would be terrible. It wouldn't cure right and all kPds of things like that,
SAM: Huh, that's really interesting,
LC: Um hum, yes. It'spart of the belief that the women were unclean at theirmgstuation period. And they shouldn't make butter, they shouldn't make bread, they shouldn't make sauerkraut because all those things wouldn't be good for you if the woman had done it at that time.
SAM: What was awoman supposed to do then? Nothing?
LC: Retire, I guess into her bedroom.
SAM: Did they ever have, ever hear things about marriage? About how you weregoing to find out who you were going to marry?
LC: Well, I've always heard about walking downstairs, you know, with amirror on Halloween Night and look in the mirror and your future husband will peak in the mirror. And of course, the young men took advantage of that and they'd follGw 'em down in the basement and peek in the mirror right along. And that was a good way to do it.
SAM: On Halloween Night?
LC: Yeah, especially on Halloween Night, um hum, that was agood night becausethen there were spirits waking all over the earth and there was a little supernaturalness came in there. And that was a good way to find out.
SAM: This wasn't just Pennsylvania Dutch?
LC: No that was quite prevalent in the country school play parties. They woulddo that one because the girls were all hoping the right boy would know and he,d walk down the stairs/be peering into her mirror for her. And there were many other things that girls should. . .One oldtime recipe for how to find out who you'd marry was to bake acake^and the recipe, and this was printed: The girl should take so much of her own water ( and that was in italics) and mix the cake with that and then eat it. And when you went to bed you'd dream of the right young man. And you'd sure dream about something, I think, if you'd been doing things like that. I remember the great-grandmother when Iwas very pregnant with one of my babies and we had about thirty of the Soil Conservation boys planting all that group of trees out here along the ditch. The ohly thing we had to do was just £eer? them their noon meal and we were just delighted to have the boys. So I just cooked up everything good I could think of and just loaded the table down for those thirty hungry kics. And I remember Grandma, the children's great-grandmaj, saying, "And now when you get the table set you must and go into your own bedroom, don't let those thirty young men see youl" And I said, "Well, Grandma, Ijust can't do it. I've got to see that they get fed and get coffee. I've got to stay out here." Well, that was very vulgar and immodest of me to do it. 8ut it was so funny because when one of the young men threw over two little sticks of gum, my oldest daughter broke one in half and rhc, said, "I'll give half my stick to my little sister." And the next little girl broke hers in half and she sdd, "I'll eat half and I'll save half for the baby that's inside of Momma." And I said, "There the thirty boys sat from the sidewalks of New York and they'd had to have been deaf, dumb and blind if they hadn't known of my condition? And not a one cracked a smile. They sat there at my table perfect gentlemen, all thirty of the little boys from the sidewalks of "Now that's just what you had coming for telling these children." "Well," Lsaid, "Those boys just loved it, they thought weren't those nice, generous little girls, they gave the gum to . They'd have had to have been deaf and blind if they didn't know what was goin'oni" Butyls the period of this great modesty, this greatretiring to your room. And Ithink that was some kind of folklore probably that all these strange glances would cast some evil spell maybe on the unborn child. Itook achance on it and Robert seems to be doing pretty well.
SAM: That was Bob, eh?
LC: That was Bob. Bob was the one we were expecting so he's doin' ail right.
SAM: He's doin' fine.
LC: Yeah, he's doin fine. I think it was all right.But I always will remember how very gallant and gentlemanly that bunch of rough kids from the sidewalks of New York were. Not asmile. They went right on eating their big, substantial farm dinner and not a smile was cracked, nobody looked at anybody.
SAM: I remember hbmit how you'tell who ye^rtlgoing to marry. The old one thatI remember is that you picked the petals of flowers, but that's so common to me, that's so. . .
LC: Sure, Yeah. Well there were many other uays of doing it. No, there wasall kinds oftMi^ And that dreaming about 'em-that was somethin' believe me. And I suppose the person that was uppermost in their minds, they all would dream about that one, you know. But if two gals dreamt about the same boy, he'd be in a bad fix. He»d have quite a little job. But there were raany like that irent on, um hum.
SAM: What about on dreaming? Weren't there beliefs that certain dreams meantcertain things?
LC: Oh, yes, I should say there are books and books published about . .mean
SAM: Idon't what the educated people say, Imean just what people used tothink. . .
LC: Oh yes, yes, yes. There were lots of different things. would dream aboutyour future husband, that was one^ especially if you ate this certain kind of. And to dream of a chicken, that was bad luck. To dream of any kind of a bird-most dreaming about birds was bad. I don't know why they were ill-omens3 that was bad. And there was an old saying among them "Dreams go by contrariesj'and that meant if you dreamt you were roing to awedding, you'd be very sorrowful and go to afuneral. If you well dreamt that you were out going to a dance, maybe you'd be down sick in bed. Whatever ya dreamt about the opposite would happen And if you about bad things then why something good was going to happen to you. And they'd say: "Dreams go by contraries." And I think maybe part of that was psychological, because so often you remembered the bad things you dreamed about, being awfully frightened or falling-those were tie things you dreamt about. But if you thought That's just the opposite, something good that's going to lift me up is going to happen -jbu see tt was their way of rationalizing. And I think that was maybe a good thing. But all of them had that saying^ "Dreams go by contraries." You dream one thing and it'll just be the other way, and that wasgoor. Ttat was good psychology, I think. Don't you2
SAM: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to me.
LC: It makes lots of sense. It encourage^ the kids.
SAM: You know^ the spirits and Iknow that may sound funny to young peoplethese days"'but from what I've read and heard it seems like spirits were really important —many people believed that spirits. .
LC: Oh, yes, and ghosts. People were always seeing ghosts. Somebody cameback in the night and told them something. And they had avision in the night and there they were. Iremember when our neighbor down here, Ed Snow, was getting old and sick. t His boy had died, his twenty-eight year old son-fine handsome young man. And I went down to comfort him and he said to me, "Oh, Iknew he was going to die. Bill Clyde (that was Earl's father), who'd been dead twenty years*), Bill Clyde came in last night into my bedroom and he sat right here on the bed and he told me that. He told But. me, Floyd is going to go.t he said, 'yo, needn't worry because it's a beautiful place and he'll be a lot better off th.it: here. And Im there and Iwouldn't tell you this if it weren't so."And he said,"I'd believe Bill Clyde anyjtime." And Ed wasn't spoofing, felt that h seen him.
SAM: Did he expect his son to die anyway, Imean was there any indication. ..
LC: Well, the boy yeah, the boy was awfully sick with pneumonia. And of coursemost of them thought a young, husky man like that would recover, but.
SAM: But he died that night.
LC: But he did die, uh huh. And he said, "Oh, Iknew he was going to die. BillClyde came in the night before and told me. Bill Clyde was here, he came ight in and sat on my bed. He told me that Floyd isn't going to make it. Floyd's going to die. But all right. It's awonderful place, and I»m and there, I'll be right there to help take care of Floyd."
SAM: Are there other experiences like that that you've heard of? Imenn I'msure that there have been because I know. . .
LC: Yes, yes, that in particular I'll always remember because no one wouldhave expected Floyd Snow, 225 pounds, six feet four inches of young, twentyeight year old maWo one expected him to die. So that always will stick in my mind. But IMember another young girl, she was rather impressionable, and m,ybe fifteen. She said, "Oh, Iknew that Grandma was going to die. Last night Idreamed about Grandma and Icould just 3ee her lying right there in bed. And she just looked so bad and Iknew, that Grandma would die." And Grandma did. But Gr ndma was an old woman and everybody knew she was go ng to die. And it wasn't so unusual, but the girl said Idreamed about it Ian night, and Iknew she was going to die."
SAM: To have somebody come, someone who'd been dead twenty years, come in andsit down and talk to you, and you feel that you know him. . . yeah, that was real unusual, and Ed was areal bright man. He'd been county commissioner, and he wasn't given to that sort of thing, And he wasn't superstitious, and ho wasn't deeply reliaious nut I'll always remerber that because noof us had expected Floyd to go-it was just so unexpected. But Ialways remember Ed silting there and telling me that. Of course, he was In deep, deep grief^and he had thought lots of Bill Clyde, they'd been great friends together all those years. He said, "Well, Bill Clyde told me that. He ana sat right down here on the bed and talked to me.''
SAM: What about haunting?
LC: Oh yes I've always heard about the haunted houses, you know, the windcreaked or the wood rats got to running around in the attic-there were people up there walking around. I'm not superstitious, you know. I...
SAM: Yea, I'm not either. But Iused to feel that it just all silliness, butnow Ifeel that at least because people that like that, there's something to it. . .
LC: Yes, well alot of people have that second sight or this, that feeling.Many of the Irish are just carried away with it. And they have^maginations and are sensitive to changes. And nearly all of them have favorite ghost stories and things that go bump in the night, you know. And I'm just not. .
SAM: Well, I'm not asking you about personal belief, I»,n asking yon aboutand am curious about what people say.
LC: Yeah, of yes. Ihave lots of people that have seen ghosts,ind my fathercame straight from Ireland^and that's where they really had the ghosts. But he wasn't much of abeliever. He told one cute story about how he was driving home;and the little people in Iidand we ewalking right across the road. And the horse stopped and wouldn't go any farther. And he got down and looked right between the ears of the horse^and there he could see these white little people walking across the roid. But he tied up his horse and went up there to look;and it was an old, white cat with a bunch of little kittens going across the road!
SAM: ; Was this here in Idaho?
LC: No, this was back in Ireland as ayoung boy. He had many stories aboutthe banshees that would come and sit on the window and keen. And when they keened^why that meant someone was going to die. And somebody did die, they'd die in that house. But the little banshee would warn you. Itwould come ~~and the banshee was a sviall little woman in flowing robes. She'd be about eighteen inches high. She'd come and stand in the window anc keen. And that's the weird waging sound they make at death. And at the Irish wakes they'll keen. So the little lady would come and keen, and that meant someone was going to die. And I've heard many of them from Ireland tell if bird flew against the window-I would just think that the thing saw a reflection or was trying to get into the light or something-but they said, "Qh, no that was an awful bad sign. If abird flew against th* window someone dm the house would die right away." And there were many of them i believed that. And adog howling at night. Itoink they heard the coyotes up ir. the hill, but many of these folks from Ireland, that was an awfully bad sign, The dog was howli%, and it was grieving recuse there would be adeath or bad sickness in the house. And the dog was baying, And to me the dog was just barking at the coyotes. But for the people who believe that Iknow it's all very real. It's Just uery real to them, you know. And Iknow people that if a black cat crossed the path)they wouldn't go to town, they'd turn around and go home. They didn't want to have any accident or anything happen to them, you know. And those beliefs carried down agood many years. My generation, 1con't think any of us did much believing along that line, but it carried down a long time.
SAM: Iwonder if the banshees made it into Idaho, because it seems to me thatalot of the beliefs got stopped at the ocean pretty much. Many of them didn't quite make it. . .
LC: No, well the oily place Iheard about the banshees crying and these ghoststories..isn't any good Irish Catholic that doesn't have a ghost that walks in it. What good would they be without awalking ghost? Most of them came with the Irish settlers, And my father being Irisn and my cousin's folks who settled here were Irish, they were great on the banshees and the ghosts and the signs of trouble, the signs of death, and signs of sickness, and everything was abad sign. My mother didn't go along with it because she was educated at Victoria and she didn't take those views, course my father didn't much either) but his relatives came fiom Ireland, they were great believers in banshees and ghosts and the little people, the fairy people and the fairy rings and the dancing at night of them. . .
SAM: What was this supposed to be? Who were the fairies supposed to be?
LC: Well they were just little people. They were eighteen inch size. And they didgood-most of them were very good—the fairies They brought you good things. They presided at^tptrfnals, there was afafrry there, and bestowed like the fairy godmother certain gifts— they were good people. And if you watched, you could see, if you went out by the full light of the moon, you eould see them dancing in the grass, and they were always out looking for fairy rings. We know they're just mushrooms is what they are, but they thought that the fairies had been there and made those. I'm not sure but what maybe the dogs had been out there too, and made the grass alittle greener, but anyway they thought they were fairy rings.
SAM: And there were bad fairies as well?
LC: Well, yes there'd be bad ones, too. But most fairies were gooa. And thebad ones were imps and other things, but there were lots of. . .All the things were ruled by that, you know, our life cycle,And if we were born under acertain sign^that was bad. And the full moon was always good, and the waning moon, that was when bad things happened. The waning moon was 4^ bad cycle, but the waxing moon, that was good. And do things in the waxing of the moon-all that was good. And then the waning of the moon, be pretty careful and quiet what you ware up to. SAM Was this Irish—not Pennsylvania Dutch?
LC: Nov this was Irish, this moon business And of course in lateryears we got to know that the moon did control the tides and a lot of the eaath things were controlled by the moon, maybe they had a little more to it thar we thought. I thought it was all just abunch of baloney, but there may have been alittle something to it, you kno s in the background. Because there are more things in Heaven Earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy. And if you're going to be awriter and that sort of thing, you got to believe in sounding, dorfbtha? And if you bring you're an idealist and*good person.
(End of Side D)
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Segment Synopsis: William Steffen, the murderer of Dr. Watkins, was a disturbed man who today would be treated for it. Old timers remembered that he had tried to kill men around a lumber camp with his meat cleaver. The list of intended victims found on his body shows that he was beside himself with grudges. She regrets that they did not try to get him to surrender peacefully, but fired on the house as a huge posse. His mother's despair. Some of those in the posse later said they much regretted it. He had not been a real disturbance in the town previously.
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Segment Synopsis: (Bob Clyde, Lola's son, enters) Mr. Wahl measured with his slide rule to prove that his bullet killed Steffen. Plumbing the house of ill-repute. The sheriff was said to have sent Deputy Cool after Steffen, who mortally shot Cool. Recounting the events surrounding Steffen's shooting of Watkins. The siege of Steffen's house.
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Segment Synopsis: The Illustrated History of North Idaho was put together by enterprising young men from California. A number of old timers including her father and Mr. Naylor wrote up articles from memory. Lack of research was the book's short coming. People paid to have their stories and pictures included, and a man interviewed each one about his background and accomplishments. The printed descriptions drew each man in similar glowing terms. The book is a most valuable record of our early days, (continued)
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Segment Synopsis: The McConnell and Sweet factions fought over which man would be selected by the Idaho legislature to become U.S. Senator in 1895. Her father cast what was probably the deciding vote for McConnell, his close friend. This led to a change in law to provide for direct election of senators. Her father was then subjected to an attempted expulsion from the Presbyterian church on charges of drinking, but he was exonerated. The newspaper headline declared: "Daniel Delivered from Liars' Den." Common practices in the early days were the stealing of ballot boxes and buying votes with drinks; but that's changed. Mr. David was a Sweet supporter; Mr. Gamble supported McConnell on many occasions. Many besides Willis Sweet were responsible for establishing the university. Despite the standing story that Moscow was ignorant and Boise full of crooks, the real reason was to keep North Idaho in the state. Rod Drury tried to strike Mr. Gamble for refusing to vote for Sweet.
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Segment Synopsis: Creighton is bested by Peterson in a debate on the parentage of a dog. More about Shorty Hill and the shooting on the Twenty-One Ranch. More about the hanging of Ed Hill: the two men were counterbalanced on one rope. Linn Strom, one of the men who took part in the hanging,was threatened with death by Shorty Hill many years later. George Horton told Lola that as a young man he joined the vigilante gang which went to hang Ed Hill for stealing horses and regretted it the rest of his life. Ed Hill's brothers guarded the jail, fearing he would be lynched; but Tom Hill was lured away to get drunk one night, and the deed was done.
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Segment Synopsis: Shorty Hill was paid to marry a hired girl that the family's son had gotten in trouble. Years later Lola asked the man's brother to get Shorty social security, and got a bill for it. Shorty and Gus both made up stories and entertained the kids. Shorty told how he saw a person standing in the middle of the Clearwater River; it was a Chinese man some others had tried to kill by throwing him in the river with his hands and feet tied.
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Segment Synopsis: Winnie Booth and Dr. Ledbrook. Old timers remember his bug eyes, and suspect he used morphine. Mrs. Egan, who had a photography studio, remembered him asking to have his picture taken and displayed so that he would appear to be looking right at Winnie, but she would do nothing of the kind. His suicide note asked that they be buried in the same grave, but he's buried alone in a plot intended for four people. Winnie's note asked that they sing "There's Not a Friend Like the Lowly Jesus" at the funeral, and that was put on her gravestone. Account of the events leading to "the double suicide". John Drury, her boyfriend, rode around in shock to call off school. Among the interpretations, Ledbrook had hooked her on morphine while treating her for a broken leg. Carol Brink's story version idealized them both. Many old timers felt Winnie lacked the strengh of character and idealism attributed to her in Buffalo Coat. Mr. Gamble knew and liked Mr. Booth. Reaction to their deaths by Methodist women was severe. Winnie's likely complicity.
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Segment Synopsis: The divorcee in Buffalo Coat did live in Moscow; it was a stigma to leave your husband, no matter how bad he was. Christine, who worked for Mrs. Watkins in the book, later worked for Lola Clyde and told her how good it was to be in the Watkins' household. Lola has acquired much Watkins' memorabilia from Carol Brink:when she moved to an apartment in La Jolla, California.
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Segment Synopsis: Beliefs. Pennsylvania Dutch hex signs on tops of barns to ward off evil. When animals got sick or cows ceased giving milk, they were under spells from witches. Superstitions. Omens of bad luck. Dropping a hot iron in the butter scares witches away. Women menstruating shouldn't prepare food. Whom you will marry: walk downstairs with a mirror on Halloween; bake a cake with your own water, eat a piece, and dream about him. When Lola was pregnant, grandma warned her to retire at dinner so the CCC boys wouldn't see her, and their glances cast a spell on the baby.
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Segment Synopsis: Second sight of the Irish . Her father sees little people on the road, but on close look it's a cat with white kittens. Banshees keen before death. A bird flying against a window or a dog baying were very bad signs. Strength of these beliefs dying through time. Good fairies. Waxing moon was good, waning bad.