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Latah County Oral History Collection

Remembering Latah County and Idaho Life at the turn of the 20th century

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Date: July 03, 1974 Interviewer: Sam Schrager

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SS: And after that I've got some other things to ask you too, but you've got a lot of names down. One is Packsack Dick and I want to know what you remember about Packsack Dick.

LG: Alright. Now, alright. I thought of his name right then. Alright, we had a preacher come to Bovill I'm on that now, hay? Alright the preacher come to Bovill and he was quite a frejind of the lumberjacks. And he was a good guy, he kept his feet on the earth, he doesn't take you up to heaven right away. And when he come to camp he always packed his blankets on his back, the early days. And of course the company liked somebody like that to go amongest the lumberjacks you know and so they'd give word at the camps, different company's there's lots of camps around there. One camp in particular had 350 men in it. I've told you about that, haven't I?

SS: Which was the number of that camp?

LG: 35, and that had more men on it on wheels since the Panama Canal was built.

SS: More than any other camp?

LG: More than in the whole United States. You see when the Panama Canal was, you know, they're all on wheels, the camps was on tracks. Well this was on rail road tracks. The big dining room you know, and bunkhousas all on wheels,And they had 350 men. And that guy that you were talking about, Axel Anderson, he was the push. Called the boss, push. He was the push at camp 35.

SS: Well tell me about,,.

LG: That was between Bovill and Clarkia,

SS: Bovill and Clarkia, Tell me about Packsack Dick then, tell me about,..

LG: Alright. Well, Packsack, he had been a prize fighter, clean prize fighter. And he'd been studying ministry.and then he became a lumberjack preacher. That's what we called him, Packsack Dick, because he was going to camp with a packsack on his back like you came in today, in here. And the gentlemen, well when they'd go to camp, the foreman would have his orders from headquarters to treat him right. Those days they had, they called it the Blue Room. I suppose in reference to the Blue Room in Washington,D.C. in the White House. They had the Blue Room there and the guest would stay in the Blue Room. And then at the one table there for foreman and guests that'd be in the dining room. Well Packsack would come and the bull cook, now the bull cook ia what we call a janitor today, you know. Bull cook, he got wood for the camp and wood for the stoves and he kept the camp clean. That is, the buildings clean inside and he would go to the... when Packsack Dick come in, he'd take him over to the Blue Room and Dick would say,"No, I want to sleep in the bunkhouse with the lumberjacks." Alright. When the time come to eat, which they fed really good, they put on wonderful at the table. Well, he'd say, they'd invite him to set there with the foreman. "No," he said,"show me a place over there with the lumberjacks." And they liked him so much. They all dug down in the pockets and gave him something and he didn't ask 'em for anything. And then after he's there quite a few yegr, he disappeared and this Johnny Miller that wrote that book. When the Trees Grow Tall, he looked him up and he found out that he was dead but he was a Methodist minister in a good size church in Spokane.

SS: Did he come through the camps very often?

LG: Oh yes, 'cause a lot of camps, you know, in this panhandle. Played the whole panhandle. Around Bovill and Potlatch was an awful lot of camps.

SS: Where would he hold his meetings?

LG: In the dining room. He taught them nice way, you know, and he didn't pretend we were all going to hell. Some would be saved. He was a reasonable guy. As I said, he had his feet right on the earth when he was talking to 'em.

SS: He wasn't too hard about the sin and life of the lumberjack?

LG: No, 'cause you know how those guys, they would go, lot of them would stay in camp all year 'round and in the fall of the year, they'd go in and spend the money. When h'd try and tell 'em the evils of spending money just for their own good, not...

SS: So the called this guy Packsack?

LG: His name was Dick Ferrel, F-e-r-r-e-1. Dick Ferrel. The church had, when Johnny Miller went up there, the church went all out with him to show him what he had done for the lumberjacks. They had his record right down. I suppose when he'd go down to Camp 3, they'd make his heaquarters up there in Spokane, and he was a good talker. And he was prize fighter, had been. He was no sissy.

SS: Yeah, so the guys respected him more for that.

LG: Oh yeah, and he respected them for what they do and everything like that. He passed by, there'd be alot of curse words said and he didn't hear them.

SS: What about Camp 35, now?

LG: Alright. Camp 35 was on wheels, it had 350 men there and Axel Anderson was push, remember that. 350 men and it was the biggest camp on wheels since they built the Panama Canal. The Panama Canal of course was jigger. That was all wheels, the Panama Canal, you know. Had side tracks as they were going along and all these laborers in there and everything like that in those camps.

SS: Did they have a hard time...did they have this camp all spread out so there was enough room for everybody?

LG: Oh yeah, well, one big bunkhouse would hold quite a bit. And the dining room, big dining room, maybe another dining room at the other end was practically all together. You could run right through like on a train. Were connected but goes right on through to the other.

SS: What kind of boss was Axel?

LG: What kind of a boss?

SS: Yeah.

LG: He was alright. He was alright. A lot of stories told him about him. About when the second war started, second World War, the men were scarce, scarce as hen teeth. And they had to have man catchers out to get the men come in. And on the job the bosses all had to treat them right or they'd quit. Now I'm going to tell you something maybe a tiny bit...

SS: No, go ahead.

LG: Alright, well maybe Axel, some guy isn't doing right and he'd bawl him out or say something to him, maybe he didn't like,and the guy'd throw the peavy down and he'd say,"Stick that up your butt." Well, well, Axel say,"I haven't got room." He'd say,"I've got two loaders," he'd say,"and a few other things up there and I got no room for more." (laughs) He speaks a little broken.

SS: That's a nice way to haneile that. He handled that, didn't get mad.

LG: You know, they used to freeze the guys on the job for instance, if a guy come out late and went to work, the employment office would freeze him on it. He couldn't quit that job. Or else they wouldn't give him another job, see. So this Axel come bawled this guy out for something. Well the guy, well he said, "You can't can me 'cause I'm froze*" "No," he said,"you're not. Yaur're thawed out." (laughs)"Just thawed you out." (laughs) "I just thawed you out."

SS: Well now Axel...

LG: Axel was assistant superintendent there at one time.

SS: He was telling me about the strike.

LG: Well I went to the strike maybe as much as him, only I worked for a cedar outfit. E.T. Chapin. And they was pretty good with the men, you know. They paid them a little better than other outfits did. And nobody would join this. Well anyhow, one thing bad against the IWW was the red flag. They used to have songs about the red flag. Well let's see if I...And all the songs they had they had quite a few parodies on it, mostly on all these hymns, you know, that the Salvation Army used and other places. If I could think of some I'd sing you one. And they were against the flag and they were against religion too. But the things they struck for wasn't unreasonable. For instance, they wanted eight hours a day and not carry any lousy blankets with 'em. Make the companies supply them with their own blankets. It wouldn't been so bad, they'd've got further if they hadn't been against the flag and religion.

SS: When you say the red flag, you mean...

LG: Well you see, Russia wasn't Bolshevik or Communist at that time, because they hadn't had the revolution yet. They had the revolution in 1917, about towards the end of 1917 is when they revolted.

SS: And when do you remember the IWW's first coming out into the country here?

LG: Oh, the IWW was probably, well, ten years before that. About 1909 or'10, I'd say. Course, i wasn't around them very much because I didn't never dream of belonging to 'em. They had two things really wrong. If they'd let those two things out and really the only things they struck for was eight hours a day and don't carry any blanket. Of course, I suppose if they got that, they'd do like they do now. Go up a little higher next time. But just think,.today if that's all they struck for was eight hours a day and not carry any blankets.

SS: Do you know what they did in the camps? Did they try and organize the men? Did they try to get the hmen to belong?

LG: Well, they done some of *em, but not all of 'em. There was lots of 'em like me that were against 'em in a way. On account of their ideas.

SS: They the ones that had those little cards the IWW, the red cards they carry?

LG: Yeah, the red cards. And they could travel as a hobo on a train with 'em. The Brotherhood of the Trainmen, or the Brakemen recognize 'em, not all the time but...those days, you know, beating a freight, the brakies would come around nad "What are you riding on?" Well, you give 'em four bits or something like that, well it was alright."I haven't got anything." "Get out. Get out the first stop, get out." And some of 'em got brutal and kick you out.

SS: You say they used the IWW cards for the brakemen sometimes they accept that?

LG: Sometimes they'd respect it. Course, I never used one... I wouldn't have one anyhow.

SS: Well, did you know were many of the lumberjacks, did many lumberjacks belong back in those days?

LG: Well, really the local lumberjacks, no. A lot of them blow in, course a lot of lumberjacks float all around the country, you know. I guess they had quite a membership now. And the record, the full record is in Pullman there, in the State University. They turned it all over to them when they folded up. I know guys that did belong to them, local guys. Boy, they got after them terrible, not the Wobblies, they call 'em the Wobblies. Not the Wobblies, but the company. Blackballed *em and everything else.

SS: Did they leave the country or...

LG: They had to, they couldn't get work. Some of them with family. There was a Governor Alexander in there at then time, and the local authorities was rough on'em. And in those days, the local authorities had play with the company. I imagine the Potlatch was the biggest tax payers there was, you know. And they played with the company more or so. And of course, Axel, he was the company man. I worked for an outfit that was, wasn't very little, but they didn't care about union,'cause they £aid good wages. They didn't bother us. I know one time a house right close to where I walked uptown, a Swede owned the house there and the Wobblies stayed there, puite a few of »em. And they stayed in another resturanant uptown. Oh, they, well, in fact, they let that burn up and we could have put it out. Caught fire and burnt up and we could have put it out. 'Cause he had been a Wobbly, he played for the Wobblies, much they could eat there and all that.

SS: Which place was this?

LG: Vernon something. He left and went, he to Portland and started a resturant.

SS: Who let it burn up? Was it just the company?

LG: Alright, it caught fire. And we had a local fire department. Everybody was fire department. And it telly you in that there book there something about it. Alright, and they let it burn up and there was a superintendent there and the cop, from the bull, Pat Malone, come to the , the water got shut off. Course, it's up to you to believe that it was shut off or else it accidently shut itself off or broke down. But she burnt to the ground.

SS: What did Pat have to do with this?

LG: Who,Pat?

SS: Pat Malone, yeah.

LG: He was the deputy sheriff.

SS: Yeah, but was he manning the hose or...

LG: Oh yeah, he was deputy sheriff, you know and he was cop,police cop, city cop, deputy sheriff and he also got so much a month from the Potlatch to go around all the buildings.

SS: So the idea was maybe him that shut it off?

LG: Well, course, they didn't say. Johnny didn't even tell about it in that book. He said it was mysterious how the water was shut off,

SS: Yeah, he didn't say, Johnny didn't say it was anything about the unions. He said there was dome disturbance but he didn't make that clear,

LG: No,

SS: That's where it was coming from.

LG: Course, that caught fire accidently, yeah. Nobody set on fire, I know that.

SS: Was there any talk of this guy,talk about reunge afterwards?

LG: Oh no, no chane there. You now, one man town, one company town, what are you going to do? Everybody worked for the Potlatch with, except on for that little outfit that I worked for,

SS: Was the town pretty split otfer the IWW? I mean, were there people that support it or people that dislike 'em, is the feeling I get,

LG: Well of course, naturally we didn't like 'em in a way, you know. We didn't want 'em in there, but we couldn't heop it. Course, the outfit I was in didn't make any difference then. They never had any with 'em. And of course, there was a lot of like today in the unions, you know, a lot...radical ones. And everything that would happen they'd blame it on 'em. I know they were making hay there and they had an engine, using a gas engine and night whBn they left they put a big tarp over it,a oily tarp and that caught fire and you blamed that on 'em. And it was accidently... and they sent trucks and truck 'em down to Boise. That ought to be in the State record. Took loads of 'em down to Boise.

SS: Loads of Wobblies? For waht?

LG: For being a Wobbly. Course those days and today are so much different. So much different. They had power. These Wobblies was trying to break the power and it's a good job they didn't.

SS: Do you think then it was the Wobblies that cause the conditions to improve in the camps?

LG: Well as soon as they got them all cleared out of there they went back to eight hours which we didt have before. They ralized something was coming but they didn't want some outfit like the Wobblies to be the one that would get benefits from it or the one that would be nivinn credit for come down to eight hours a day. And they come down to blankets, sheets and blankets in the camps.

SS: What do you remember about the strike itself? That started in '17, I guess, was it '17 that the strike happened?

LG: Yeah, well I was gone most of the time and see, we.., I enlisted right then and I trained there at Fort George Wright,

SS: Was that after they started the strike?

LG: Yeah, And then I come into town to straighten things out. I was alone, just single travelling 'round. And I come to town to straighten things out when I got off the train, boy, they had what they called some Association there and they would grabbed you right there then again off the train and asked you if you was a Wobbly and all that. Well when somebody come up and said,"That's Guilfoy.", course, they didn't say anything then.

SS: Where was this?

LG: Bovill.

SS: In Bovill.

LG: Yeah. I got 24 hours off to come horn. I wasn't married or anything like that. I never had a family there at all.

SS: Was the Association Wobbly or against the Wobbly?

LG: Oh the Association was against the Wobbly.

SS: That's what I thought.

LG: Oh yeah. And I'll think of it after while. We joined some association.

SS: Is that the 4-L's?

LG: Ho, the 4-L hasn't started then. The 4-L's a company union, see. What was that, Loyal Lumberjacks Lone or something?

SS: Loyal Legion.

LG: Loyal Legion, yeah. Well that didn't last for long because really, a company union isn't so hot.

SS: It seems like a...

LG: 'Cause they're all for themselves. They tell the men what to do. Not like today aunion is something. Idon't believe in themway they handle things either. You take look at the heads of the union and look what we got. Half of 'em in prison and everything and one murdered a whole family

SS: Did they want you to join the 4-L's?

LG: Yeah, when I cam back after the war. I went to work at what they called Camp 10 and I got a job that's the first cats that they used to skid logs, the Potlatch. And I got a job swamping for the cat. And there's a guy there, he was a straw boss there and he told me, he said,he was a walker for the 4-L and he told me he said,"Now, we're having a meeting in the dining room at Camp 10," he said,"I want to see you there.""What do you want to see me for?" He says,"We want to see you take a 4-L button'.1 Great big button. With LLL on it. "Well," I said,"Bill, I don't think you'll see me there." And I said,"I just got out of the army and by golly, I wanttto be free!" Well our buttons shouldn't show up. Next morning he told him I didn't have to go to work. Well,"Fine," I said,"it's alright with me." And Stanley Hodgeman was superintendent and I was in camp and he said,"Well Leo, what's the matter with you? Why arenit you at work?" I told him. Okayfne give me a better job. 'Cause he was a lieutenant in the outfit I was in, Company D. And he give me a better job. Well when this Bill come in that night,"What are you doing hanging around camp?" "Nothing." I said."Nothing. Just then Hodgeman walkedtup and he told him, he said,"You know, you shouldn't have talked like that to him." He said,"Don't force him to join anything. Let him pick, if he wants to, fine. If he don't, alright. And he can still go to work here."There was a lot of them against that 4-L. And a lot of them thought the only reason you had to join it was because to hold their job i.down. But the Wobblies were no good in other places, on account what I'm telling youi Aagainst the flag and against religion. And they had a lot of bums, too, at the head of it. And mot of them, lot of floaters. But I do know this, I know quite a few Wobblies that enlisted right away when was was declared. We had one guy, his name was White, can't think of his first name. We called him Wobbly White. He joined up and he was picked out as the best specimen of a soldier there was. His height, weight, and activity and things like that. There was quite a few joined up right away. Course, the IWW nenbers were.

SS: When you say floating, you're thinking of the guys that rode the rails all the time and went from job to job, is that what it was?

LG: Well, yeah. Well, you know, hobo, course he used to ride the rails too. But there wasn't so many hobos joined the IWW. It was pretty strong in the woods up in this country. And it would have been really no good if they'd have gotten power at all. It'd've been no good for everybody.

SS: Well the way I heard it was once the conditions got improved...

LG: Right away.

SS: Once their aims were met they disappeared, that's what I had heard.

LG: Well, they wouldn't, well in a way. Course the conditions that wasn't much to ask for eight hours and not carry lousy blankets.

SS: Well some of the guys were patrotic so what your'e saying is...

LG: Well_it stopped, you know, it stop and hesitate like,I said, between the flag and religion,it stopped right there. And once you got away from that, course a lot of it is talked up, you know.

SS: When the strike stared, did the camp shut down all over the place?

LG: Mostly all, yah. Well the first time the camps, you know, where I was, we didn't have Wobblies. Alright, I went down town and they 'were all waling up the track from what they call Camp8 and rom the other way, the other camps. And they were singing those songs. Out in the breadlinge, watching the job sign, we are on the bum boys today. The employment office ships east and wets, jobs are quite scarce and none of the best. And they were all tuned to religious songs.

Hallelujah give us a handout To rebve us again. Then there's another one about: They had pie in the sky You'll get pie in the sky when you die. Holy rollers and jump as a shout Give you money to Jesus to saye You'll get pie in the sky when you die. They used to have all those songe, you know, and got wroten down and given books out with the songs on it.

SS: Did you feel did you dislike them at the time? Were some of your friends Wobblies then?

LG: Well no, no, you see, most of the friends I had where I worked, we didn't have one Wobbly in the whole outfit. Not one.

SS: Did they have much of a sense of humor?

LG: Oh no, well in those songs, you know.

SS: They sound pretty funny.

LG: But then, you know there were in those days, you know, used to have Salvation Army on corners andeverything like that, and in the street. And they congreate when they left those little towns, and the camps, they'd get out in Spokane down on 8kid Row is. They'd be on Skid Row there all together and there were quite a few bums amongest 'em.

SS: Well was the strike have anything to do with you deciding to go into the war?

LG: Oh no, no, absolutely not.

SS: You just wanted to enlist and go over?

LG: Yeah.

SS: Let's hold that, I want to talk about that later, a little bit about the war in France. But I want to ask you about some of these other characters, some more people some more names and how they got their names. One guy that I was wondering about is this Tamarack Slim story on...

LG: Alright now, alright. Tamarack Slim,he's about6 feet 4 and he had about a 28 waist, big, tall, like a tamarack. Well Tamarack Slim come in one time going to town, and there was a travelling tailor would take you measure. He'd take you neasure you know, for a suit and he'd come by and he'd send back to Chicago and he'd get that suit back, you know, nice suit of clothes for 22 dollars and 50 cents. Well Tamarack Slim wanted to go to a dance some place and the guy measured Tamarack Slim. Measured his waistline and his inseam of his pants and when he got back to that tailors back in Chicago,"Why he must have made a mistake. Why/there's no man like that. He must have made a mistake." And so they put the waistline and changed the waistline with the pantsline. And when Tamarack com back dressed up to go to the dance, they fitted him about there, his foot there, the pants come to about up there.

SS: Oh, the pants came down to his knee...

LG: Yeah, they said,"We never had that length, he must have made a mistake," and so they made the pants but they thogght he made a mistake. 28 waist, they put a 28 inseam, or something like that.

SS: His waist was big.

LG: Yeah.(laughs) Come a little below his knees. Course he had the name Tamarack Slim 'cause they featured him as they would tamarack, you know. Tamarack, big tall, Tamarack Slim. Alright. Society Red, you got that there?

SS: UM-hm.

LG: Society Red...

SS: Wait, let me change...

(End of side A)

LG: ...yes.

SS: So what about Society Red?

LG: Alright. Society Red worked around in the camps round there. Mind you, he hadn't gotten the name Society Red yet. He worked round the camps in there. And he was working in one camp and he quit the camp and there was a dude ranch in Montana somewhere. On his way travelling through he run into the dude ranch and he was a good looking guy. And ask for handout, you know what a handout And there was quite a bunch of women in there using horses and everything else. It was a high class dude ranch. Well he got into society and made heck with the women that was in there. And pretty soon the women had/him trained trying to improve his speech and all that and doing away with cursing and everything like that. And when they got through there, Society Red get through any place, got through there, he floated back into the camps and started in the way of talking, everything like that, it knocked the lumberjacks right to the floor and so they called him Society Red. That's it.

SS: How do you think he was acting? What was he doing that made him call Society... was he high falutin?

LG: Well, sure, because they taught him better. The women got him and taught him not to swear or curse or anything like that. And when he got through, well, he had to go back lumbering, logging. And so they called him Society Red. In high society, you know, maybe stayed in that dude ranch maybe six months, you know, all them women training him not to swear and all that, you know. Not to call bread punk. And oh...(laughs)

SS: Not to call bread punki

LG: Pass the punk please.(laughs)

SS: What about Starvation Pete?

LG: Well he was a cook. Well there was one time when the cooks contracted. Contracted the food on the table you know what I mean? And this Starvation Pete, he was going to get richtright fast. Well the grub he put on he pret'near starved 'em. So they called him Starvation Pete. Course, the company didn't stand long for that. Ituwas alright for the company but they didn't want to have lumberjacks quitting all the time.

SS: Tfae men couldn't take the chuck, huh?

LG: Well it wasn't getting enough. Chuck. They used to feed wonderful in those camps.

SS: What about this Haydown Jack?

LG: I don't know much about him but he done a lot of farming. Worked on farms every once in awhile. I know they used to have a saying "it's haydown time." And he brought that word and so they gave him that word,Haydow Jack. Don't ask me that one, Broken Ass Pete.

SS: What about him? How did he get the name?

LG: Well he walked funny, (chuckles) Dragged on his hip.

SS: Dragged on his hip, huh? That reminds me of what was his name, Shitty Shirt Bill?

LG: Oh yes, sure.

SS: What was his name, Shitty Shirt- Bill?

LG: No, it wasn't Bill.

SS: I've got his name down someplace.

LG: You've got it down there, I'm slipping a little.

SS: Yeah, it was Shitty Shirt Bill.

LG: Yeah, it in, now I remember.

SS: How did he gt that name?

LG: Wei, come drunk into camp once and shit all over his shirt. Stuck it right there. I told you about this chief of police there at Otofino. He called me up one time and,"Say he said,"I've got five names you didn't put down. And I looked at 'em. He's dead now, the chief of police, got killed in a wreck, A wonderful guy, just fitted a town like Orofino, really. And he had five names there, Broken Ass Pete, it was Broken Ass Pete that taas one of 'em,,.

SS: And Shitty Shirt Bill...

LG: I said, "By god fella,: but there was five of 'em and I've forgotten now what there were but he had five on the list.

SS: That's a pretty good name, that one. What about the Weasel?

LG: The Weasel, well, he would sneak round at night. He'd get up and sneak round, just a habit of his, sneaking round. And he'd lay down under some of the bunkhouses and sleep and then move to the other bunkhouses and sleep.

SS: That's pretty funny.

LG: Yeah, well all of those was nickname was sonething that happened or something they did.

SS: What about /Butterfly Pete?

LG: Alright, Butterfly Pete, he followed the log drive quite a bit. And you know how to step on one log to the other And he'd just jump on one log and on the other and be 'cross all the others before he'd go on the small logs, just hop on it and be on the next log. Oust flying on there like a butterfly. I don't know whether hi's alive or not, but he's living in Seattle. And he used to do his right down on the Clearwater River on the log drive. That's ended now. the guy that used to sneak up on people too? Or sneak away from people? Is that somebody else?

LG: Who's that?

SS: You mentioned somebody that used to have, you'd look around and he'd be gone.

LG: Oh yeah, I can't think of his name, now I'm forgetting 'em all. There was Midnight, what was his other name, Midnight, you've got it down there?

SS: Yeah. I gotta find it though. Let's see, Midnight Joe.

LG: Yeah. He'd roam the streets there when he'd come to town and be out, walk up and down the, see at midnight. He got that name Midnight, he kept that in the camp. And there was High Trestle, you got that name down?

SS: Yeah. What did he do?

LG: Okay, these guys one time had to go to work over a trestle. And High Trestle, he was nervous walking a logging train went over it,you know, and high and he wasn't going to do that so he went and got down and instead of crossing with the rest of 'em on the trestle on the ties, you know, he went down and the first thing you know he pret'near drowned in the river and they all had to get down and save him. So they called him High Trestle Pete, no Jack, I forgot...

SS: You have High Trestle.

LG: Yeah, well HightTrestle they called him.

SS: Uh-hm. Because he was too chicken to walk across the high trestle.

LG: Yeah, he got drowned in there. They had to come down and push him, pull him out.

SS: What about Blue Pete?

LG: When it got the least bit cold, his face'd get as blue as can be.

SS: What about Black Russian?

LG: Well he was a Russian and awful dark for a Russian. There you go.

SS: What about Sour Dough.

LG: Sour Dough was a cook and he made, done a lot of his cooking, made it with sour dough. A few years ago all the bread and stuff like that was made with sour dough. And you make sour dough for a starter, you know. You can keep it. Keep adding fllour and water to it and it'll keep for the next batch instead of yeast. Use sour dough. Have it in a crock and it's a starter for bread.

SS: I heard that was real peopular in camps.

LG: 0h yes, sure, yeah. You know, most of camps had a baker and they never bought bread. The baker never bought.|read. Tey always had to bake it. The second cook would bake. Have you got Cream...

SS: Cream Puff Peewee?

LG: Yeah.

SS: What about him?

LG: Alright. He's quite a guy. He was up here not long but he's really going places now. He's selling cars. And he's really going, he comes and sees me. He's the one that has" the second hand store.

SS: You told me about the store.

LG: Yeah.

SS: Yeah. HDw did he get his name?

LG: Alright. He went down to this camp as pastry cook, no second cook, and the first thing he made a bunch of cream puffs. And I don't know what happened to the cream puffs, but you bite into 'em and that cream would spurt all over your face. You know, the first thing the lumberjack bit into b§em, got all over his face.(chuckles)

SS: Birds Eye?

LG: That was an old saying. "No vanities today, birds eye." If you done something just right, hit the right place, birds eye. For instance, if you were boring a hole through a board and tyou want it to come out right?perfect on the other side you'd go,"Oh birds eye." You'd say,"Come right straight on through." And things he'd do he'd always holler,"Birds eye!"

SS: Was he on the mark a lot of the time? Was he good or was that just making fun of him?

LG: Well that's just somebody kept saying birds eye, making fun of him.

SS: Oh, he used to say that himself? How about Broad Shoulder Tommy?

LG: Okay. He didn't have shoulders any wider than 5 year old Kate, just nice shoulders they come sloping down the side. Broad Shoulder Tom, I seen him in lewiston here a few years ago. Oh I suppose he's gone. Got up where the lumberjacks stay.

SS: Where's that?

LG: Next to one side of heaven.(laughs)

SS: They got their own siede. Not down there, up there.

LG: Oh yeah. There wasn't very many bad lumberjacks you know, crime or anything like that. They'd come to town and get drunk and all that but there wasn't many robberies or anything like that, or murders or anything like that amongst 'em.

SS: So they're pretty good lot. They didn't travel around a lot, though, did they?

LG: Not very much. They'd take ar-notion one pleace, kiinda slacked up they'd go to another place not far.

SS: What about this Big Island Pete?

LG: Alright, up at Northfork at Clearwater and I think it's covered over now with the Dworshak dam, the island is. And he had a place there on the island there, big island. And he went up there and he started a little sawmill up there. And he'd be gone for a few months and he'd come back and he said they stold everything from the sawmill, the gusy. They even stole the pond that the logs floated mn.

SS: He got his sawmill stolen?

LG: Little one, he had a small sawmill. He left it, you know. Big Island Pete.

SS: If there's any stories about these guys like that, you know, just tell me.

LG: I remember that Big Island Pete, you know. He had been in the army and he was trying to get a pension and he couldn't get a penion somehow or another, some of his papers was wrong and so I took him down to the chief of police that I'm telling you about and Bill he fingerprinted him and we sent the fingerprints in to the army, Washington,D.C. and by golly a little while aft er that, he got the pension. 'Cause they fingerprinted in WWI. That's the first time they ever fingerprinted was used, you know, in the army, navy or something.

SS: They checked and found out that he was in the army?

LG: Yeah.

SS: What about this Patter Foot?

LG: Well, he'd walk up and down and he'd generally have a loose sole on his shoe, clap, clap, clap, at night. He'd walk up and down you know, so they called him Patter Foot, Patter Foot.

SS: Wood'em Up,George?

LG: Alright. Years ago they'd haul logs by team and skid by team. And they call a log, wood. And he'd always on a big heavy load. And he'd tell 'em, he be cross-sawing with a team, the logs up on the wagon. And he'd keep wanting more. "Wood 'em up, wood 'em up, wood'em up more." Well, they'd say "You got too much no. No wood *em up more." More work.

SS: Try to get every last stick he could on there.

LG: Like these truckers do today, you know, they want to get every stick on, you know, to count. Even go over weight.

SS: Ski Jumper?

LG: Yeah, well I didn't know him very well and he was quite a jumper on skis. But one time he went out ski jumping and he come back and he never skied any more. His face was all scratched right down there. And he never skied any more.

SS: What about the Bangor Kid?

LG: He was from Bangor, Maine. And in the early days there was quite a few you know, the white pine started and river driving started in the United States, in Maine. They had lots of white pine and rivers and they liked, they did here when Dworshak Dam, before it was built. They used the river to float the logs down and old Bangor, Maine, there's quite a few of 'em came from Bangor Maine up there and they nickname 'em Bangor, Maine, or the Big guy from -Maine and quite a few first of the white pine came from Bangor, Maine, to Michigan, Michigan to Minnesota and MinBesota to Idaho.

SS: You mean the guys would work across the continent?

LG: Well you know in the early days Maine was started and pretty well clear out for a while.They they jumped through Michigan where they had some, a lot of Pine left and they come to the next one was Wisconsin and then Idaho.

SS: Did most of,the lumberjacks know that about the old history of logging that had started in Maine then went to Minnesota?

LG: Yeah.

SS: Everybody knew that?

LG: They brough it over here. You know the peavy, you know what a peavy is. To rool logs? And a cant hook? That word peavy came from Maine.

SS: Would you say that many of the old lumberjacks around here had come from the midwest or from the east?

LG: Well, a percentage from Maine and then quite a few from Minnesota and Wisconsin cause that was the last jump over the white pine. Then they moved over to Idaho. Idaho, this panhandle had lots of white pine, beautiful white pine. Cedar and white pine. In those days white pine was the king of woods. They'd even leave red fir and white fir and tamarack in the woods and log the white pine and cedar out.

SS: How bad did that 1910 fire hit the white pine in the country?

LG: Oh boy, it was terrible. I shipped out to it from Spokane at the time, 1910 and I got to St. Maries and a guy knew me in the Maries and by god,"Don't go out to that." he said. "Well," I said,"I got to work." "Well if you want, we got a job in the sawmill for you." I think there was two or three hundred burned up.

SS: Were you going out to work in the fire?

LG: Fighting fire, yeah. Boy that was a terrible one. But I didn't get out on it. I had the card where I was shipped out there, but I don't know where it is now. That would be quite a relic. They ship you out from Spokane you know. It didn't cost you anything if they get the job or anything like that. And they'd ship you out on the train to the Maries or what was in all directions.

SS: Is that the first time you come out to this country, in 1910?

LG: On no, little, was before that, about 1905, or '06. Then they, that was in 1910, that fire. Which was quite a few fires...in those days we had no ways of fighting fire. Alls that we had was the grab hoe andishovel. To make trails the fires. And course the men that lived around where the fires was wasn't such an awful big bunch and they'd be all shoved into it right away and they'd have to send to Spokane for bus loads of 'em. And most of them was hobos. And they didn't want the fire put out. There wasn't much work to do and it was an awful job and in those days it was terrible. Fire was terrible,. Boy, but it was hard, tough work. You had to dig a trench and watch and there would be windfall, fall down over that and after it burnt quite a ways and you'd have to watch that and you'd have to get in there with a cross-cut saw, the two of you in that smoke and sparks and fall the trees so it'd fall into the fire. Watch the ones that was just about ready to fall and try to fall 'em into the fire and that was a hot job.

SS: You were fighting right up by the fire?

LG: Oh yes, and you didn't want 'em to go over that tcail. Course if you did, you'd have to build another one right around that and connect the trail that was left.

SS: I suppose that there were men that got killed fighting those fires too?

LG: A lot of 'em. And a top fire, oh, was a sonofagun. Get up on top and boy, he could run faster than a man could run. Everybody's running.

SS: Did you ever have any close calls when you were fighting 'em?

LG: Well, pretty quite a few. In there on time when a top fire came, couree, we wanted to know the directions as much as we could. And it across the top. You'd lose your coat and everything else you had out there with you.

SS: What kind of camps did they set up for the men fighting the fires.

LG: Oh any kind of a camp. Try to do anything you could. Sleep on the ground if you ujant. But they try to keep you fed and that was kind of tough too.

SS: You mean getting the supplies in there.

LG: Yeah, getting supplies.

SS: What was the Spokane, what was it like there for a guy that wanted to work out in this country, let's aay. How was the hiring done in Spokane back in the early days?

LG: Okay. Spokane had a good many emokitnebt iffuces, And they had great big blackboards to fill in their room or office. Now don't tell that story while she's here.(laughs) No, and the jobs, every job you can think of in the world work on the railroad, they'd ship you anywhere through the United States. You'd have to buy a sugan, you know what a sugan is? No you don't Alright, a sugan's a quilt. And you byy a sugan and you go and apply for the job. And the railroad shipped all over the place. In fact, when I took a homestead up, I went and registered at an employment office and they shipped me out to close by 'cause I shipped out from Los Angles, close by where my homestead was going to be and I got off and they wasn't going to let me off this train til I got to Tucson.

SS: So you said you were going to work and they shipped you out and you got off at your homestead?

LG: Yah, I hadn't filed on the homestead yet, see, but I went to work in a logging camp. Blindslew, Oregon and the time keeper there and his brother was manager of the biggest building in Los Angeles at that time. The Los Angeles Investment Company on 8th and Bradway. And he give me a letter to his brother because his brother was interested in homesteads there at Casa Grande. Then when I was there, there was 20 people in Casa Grande. Now there's about 25,000. So I went out and there was a adobe hotel, well, maybe I should be filling...

SS: Oh you csn talk a little bit more about it.

LG: Alright. There was adobe hotel then, oh, when I got to Casa Grande, there was a couple I think it was a womanand daughter and I tole 'em, I said,"I want to get off." They're getting off at Casa Grande and I tbld 'em I said, I want to get off there but that conductor and brakeman there. Well the woman said,"You get between me and my daughter." So this sugan I had I just left it stuck in under the bench, you know, on the train, And I walked out like I belonged to 'em. Got down and just got 25 feet away from the train and the brakeman hollered,"You can't get off here... ". I said,"Listen mister, I'm off. Come ahd catch me." He couldn't run. why did a guy have to have a sugan to get employed by the office, 'cause it showed he was going to have his bedroll with him or something?

LG: Yeah, sure, that was you bedroll. 'Cause those jobs, you wouldn't have a bed.

SS: Was there many guys in Spokane waiting for jobs?

LG: Oh yeah, you can ship back east to Minneapolis and back there. The job would cost you a dollar.

SS: Who did you pay,the man that gave you, that sent you out?

LG: The man that give you the ticket at the employment office.

SS: I heard sometimes you had to kick back part of your first paycheck to those guys.

LG: Some of 'em did when times got better and the job was better. You see what I mean? Like for instance, a cook, those days a good cook gets $75 a month. And of course he'd have to pay three or four dollars. Oh, they were crooked? in a way, but these jobs just to travel you only pay a dollar.

SS: Did you have to pay for your train fare out there?

LG: Oh no, gosh no.

SS: How did the railroad get paid for you...

LG: You're working for the railroad. Railroad have to have men on that job. Any job you had, section, you know waht a Gandy dancer is? Those days you tapped the ties with a shovel, you tap the ties and straightened up the rai, section boss, you know what a section boss was? He's a hard boil Irishman, you know. You had a handcar, you push up and down and up and down and the section boss would stand in the middle, hold it by the handle. Well he wouldn't work at all, just hold it to keep balance on there. There would be about forty on each end, pumping. All hand work.

SS: Why did they call this guy Gandy Dancing, what is it, Gandy Dancing Tony?

LG: That's all he worked, Gandy Dancer. And they got him at the lumberjack.

SS: I thought lot of these railroad crews were Italian, right?

LG: Oh everything. Some would have Italians,some of them wouldn't, they'd have everything you could think of. And most quite a few Italians but not all... Austrians, we called 'em bohunks, in those days. And a bohunk's Czechoslovakians and Austrian.

SS: Did you get to know many of those guys that worked on the railroad?

LG: No, be cause I never did gandy dance. The only railroad work I did I worked with the bridge and building outfit out of Flagstaff, Arizona in there, it was on the Santa Fe. I can tell you some good stories on the bridge and building on that. Well there was a guy named, am I...

SS: No, go ahead and tell me the stories.

LG: Alright, there's a guy name Bob Calkhill, he was Manx, you know what Manx is?

SS: Yeah.

LG: Alright.

SS: Isle of Mann.

LG: Well Bob Calkhill and his wife, he was a push and his wife done the cooking good cook. And she took sick and we were working on a trestle lifiing, the trestle up, you know and putting braces and everything like that, up under it, wood trestle on the Santa Fe. And he had to take his wife to town, to at Alburquerque, we was close to Flagstaff. And he come out and he looked all they guys and he said,"Say, my wife's got pretjnear all the meals ready. I want somebody to take charge here," Oh no, course I wasn't so very old then and he looked at me he said,"What about you Leo?" I said,"Boy I don't want to do any cooking." And he said,"You wonftt have to do much." And he walked off to the others. "Now,"he said,"wait a minute." He says,"Let you guys vote on who'll take it." Well who got mbst of the votes, me. Well I went, told Bob. "I'll do the best I can." He says,"My wife's got up."

And I said,"I'll do the best I can." And so then I told him, I says,"You tell these guys here by god, any kicks on 'em what you're going to do to 'em when you come back." Well she had supper ready. And they left on the train. The train came through and stopped and picked 'em up. And there in Albuquerque and next morning she had breakfast all ready,I could throw that on her :and next morning, (makes knocking sound.) Knock came on the cookhouse door. I opened the door and here was a guy, a Mexican and he said,"How's chance for a hand out?'* I said"Come in." And he come in and I said,"Sure, I'll fix you a handout." Well he said,"If you'll show me where it is," he said,"I won't trouble you, I can do it myself." Well I said,"Where you going?" Well he said,"I'm going to," he said," 've cooked in the bigger hotel in Mexico City," he said,"I'm trying to get to Phoenix, Arizona and I've got a second jobs cook in the Adams HoteL'.' That was the tjiggest hotel at that time. Well he come in there and bod, I thought now, boy, there's a chance for me right there. So I give him a meal and I talked to him, I said,"Are you in a hurry to go the Adams Hotel to be cook?" "No I'm no hurry," And so I just got to thinking, I'll work this guy in and I told him what I was going to do, I said,"Will you join it?" "Yeaa," he said,"what is it?" Well I says,"You do all the cooking here."But don't let these guys see you when they come in for meals.nMake out like me, you see." I says,"I know the enginer, his name is Walter Friend and I've know him a long time - and I'll get him to take you right to Phoenix on the train on another train going down that way."

And I said,"Then you can carry all the grub you want from here with ya." "Oh boy," he says,"that'll be fine with me." So when they come in they took lunch out and when they come in that table was just groaning with stuff. And one guy stepped in the door and started to say, and I said, "Listen, you don't talk here, soldier. You shut up and keep your mouth shut. And if you start kicking on this, you can come in and do that." "Oh no," he said,"we was going to tell you how wonderful it was.i!I wasn't going to say anything." "Never mind about saying anytning, not all bullcrap." And two days like that and breakfast that morning and in the mean time, Friend had gone through on the freight. He come in, he always stopped in. He found out that I was there and he come in. I told him the deal and he laughed to beat the dickens. He said,"You bet we'll take that guy right to Phoenix. And I said this evening when you're going through the same way. And they were coming back the next day. Bob Calknill and his wife was coming back next day. And I tld him what a wonderful breakfast.A friend told me the time he was going through and he said he'd give him a ride in the caboose in royal and he said and at the Needle's, California he was going ' to put me on a train going to Phoenix in the caboose. Well, gee, the breakfast the next morning was oh, oouutt ooff fthMi.s world, you know,'cause he was a good cook.

And a friend stopped there and rang the bell, you know and Friend got off you know and come in and had a little lunch and he shook this guy's arm and the conductor had eat two meals from him already. And they all think he was a king or something they walked and put cushions under him and put him in the caboose and off her went. And they came in about 11 o'clock, Bob and his wife. Whatever happened to it, they worked on it, and they came in about 8 o'clock oh^no, about 10 o'clock and they saw stuff that I hadn't cleaned off the table yet, and she says, they had a little brogue there, those people on Mann, Isle of Mann, and she says^"oh you told me you couldn't cook." Well I said,"I didn't want anybody to know it." And when the guys come in, oh boy, they sure respected me. You bet, they respected me. They thought I was wonderful, you know, to take that job, be working on bridge construction, instead of cook a meal like that.

(End of side B)

SS: Bean Ridge?

LG: Okay. He's still alive now down here, there's a place call Bean Ridge near Troy. They raise a lot of beans there. And there he come in to work in the logging camp and that was Bean Ridge. He's quite a guy. One time I was in Troy, no, Kendrick, and he got all snooted up and I was sitting there eating and they came in there and staggering in there and he said,Kl can lick anybody that wears a sheepskin coat!" And there was a guy in there with a sheepskin coat. And he stood up and he went outside and he beat the hell out of Bean Ridge. Well, they put him in jail and I come by and talked to the marshall. "Well," he said,;rI said,"What does it cost to get him out?" Alright, he said, "I wouldn't put no charge against him but just for me for picking him up, two and a half." And I paid him two and a half. And took Bean Ridge home.

SS: What did Bean Ridge have to say about his boast?

LG: Well,(chuckles)

SS: Not much, huh?

LG: "I'm going to lick anybody here with a sheepskin coat on." You kno, sheepherder.

SS: Were there many guys that came from that country, just local guys that came up to make some money?

LG: There was quite a few, there was quite a few. Well, a lot of lumberjacks, you know, like I tell lyou in that country in the early days. Then afterwards they got native borned and not only that, there was lots others all at once came in from Oregon and there. This is easier logging than Oregon you know.

SS: Is it easier?

LG: Oh yes, smaller timeber.

SS: But isn't it more ridgey and up and down?

LG: Well, no, not like Oregon, there. These got big timbers, pretty toughs You carry those great, big inch and a half chokers. You know what a choker is? Made out of cable, great big cable. You had to drag them up the hill, but '. here as a rule, a half an inch or three-quarter inch is 'bout as heavy as they got.And this is smaller timber around here and there isn't a coast and those Douglas firs are something.I worked there in the woods a litte.

SS: Is Michigan Bill was he named that 'cause...

LG: Alright, Michigan Bill, I think he's dead, but he followed the log drive quite a bit, Michigan Bill did. He followed the log drive. I knew him quite well. He followed the log drive, he was quite a drinker and he'd get in on the log drive, you know.

SS: What about this Hurry Up Jimmy?

LG: Alright, he was kind of a foreman and everything he'd do would be,"Hey, hurry up there, hey hurry up, now get that done, hurry up." Alright, Hurry Up Jimmy Sullivan get that in. So they called him Hurry Up Jimmy. He worked for the lumber company. They logged up here out of Bovill there. Bought a bunch of timber,2,000 acres of timber from the Potlatch.

SS: I was just wondering if most of the foremen were like that? I mean, push the men as hard as they could?

LG: Well, earlier days in my time, they were terrible. They'd come in and kick the bunkhouse room. "Roll out or roll up." We had a guy in there named Roll out or roll up. Kick the door in, roll out or roll up. And they worked twelve hours a day, course, I'm talking about in Minnesota then, Michigan or Minnesota, they'd work 10, 12 housr a day and they got paid by the month.

SS: Didn't they do that here before they...

LG: They had to buy their own tea. I think when they came out here they were more independent, you know, and they didn't bring those ways back from Minnesota with 'em, it stopped, it didn't go any further.

SS: But before the conditions got better I would think it was worse.

LG: Yeha, they did. They got better. The turn of the century got better.

SS: What do you think made, was there some foreman that were good foremen?

LG: Well, course, the later date foreman was good, why the company made 'em good. Because your men was quitting all the time and you had to get another man, he had to learn the job. They found out, the company found out they weren't making money, so they canned the foreman. The foreman, there was some that got awful tough.

SS: I suppose if a guy got too tough he just wasn't any good to have for the men.

LG: No, because he was changing the men around. And you take a bunch of men that's dissatisfied and they ain't going to do the work of a satisfied bunch.Is that right?

SS: Yeah. It sure makes sense. What about the Saginaw Kid?

LG: WG11, he was from Saginaw, Michigan. Saginaw was quite a lumbering town. It'd jump from Maine and come to Saginaw, in that country.

SS: What about this Calvanized Swede?

LG: Okay, he was tougher than a sonof a gun, so they figured he was tough as galvanized steel.

SS: Was he a big fighter?

LG: Oh no, the Swedes as a rule didn't fight very much, but they would work hard to clean the position with the boss.

SS: The Swedes would?

LG: Yeah. I was trying to think of that other Swede there. Oh boy, Steam Shovel Oly, is that down there?

SS: I don't know. What about him?

LG: Why, they logged with steam rigs, shovel. Pull the logs in with steam rigs and load the cars with the steam righs. Well, it had to come up on an apron you know, and load the cars and move along and put another apron under it and this Steam Shovel Oly, oh, he could work. He'd get a great big shovel to level this off to put the apron on for the rig to move on. Oh, he'd shovel it out in no time. The shovel was loaded up like that. So they attributed him to a steam shovel.

SS: Were those guys stood out as being especially strong to the strongest men, lumberjacks around.

LG: Well, yes, they were.

SS: Was there any guys that you remember when you were out there that really stood out as being real super strong men?

LG: Well they didn't show off. No, the lumberjacks didn't show off like, you know, show their strength, 'cause there was a lot of good men amongst them, you know. You know what Paul Bunyan did, you know him, don't ya?

SS: I've heard of him.

LG: Yeah. The things he did. He dug Lake Superior and he had a blue ox that could really pull. There was a road there all curved, so he hooked his blue ox on to one end of it and dug his peavy in the other end of it and the blue ox pulled and straightened the road out. Oh, there's lots of stories about Paul Bunyan.

SS: Did lumberjacks used to tell stories about him in the camps?

LG: Oh yeah, yeah. They laughed to beat the band about that Paul Bunyan. There's books out on Paul Bunyan.

SS: Did they talk about him as back as early as WWI do you :remember?

LG: Oh, way before that. Way before that.I guess that Paul Bunyan started in Maine, years ago. You know they tell about him taking on the Round River. And getting on the Round River and he looked, oh he said,"Gee, that looked like the camp I just started from." And after awhile,he, there was no round just round the river, taking a big raft of logs down and going round and round all the time on this river.(chuckles) And then he had a great big raft of logs and he was taking 'em down to New Orleans bed he took the wrong logs and he had to bring 'em back.(laughs) Oh there's some good stories.

SS: Was there any other guys besides Paul Bunyan that loggers used to tell stories about.

LG: No, that's the only lumberjack...

SS: that was known as a superman?

LG: Yeah. And they have some great stories about him.

SS: I'd imagine that some of the local guys, they mustj'ue thought were big drinkers or big fighters or something like that. Some of these guys that you're telling me about.

LG: Well you know, later years they let a big roar out and there was always someone to take 'em up. And they didn't fight much amongst themselves. Except when they were drunk. Really there wasn% mucy crime amongst lumberjacks. Like there is some other occupations.

SS: When they fought, did they fight real tough?

LG: Oh yeah. And if they got a good chance they'd stomp on ya with their cork shoes. You know what a cork shoe is? Spikes right in it.

SS: I suppose that'd finish the fight, Huh?

LG: Oh yeah.

SS: If a guy got beaten, letss say, like that, would he hold a grudge or would they make up?

SS: No, no, the others would see that he didn't hold a grudge. They generally leave right then. It wasn]t^such terrible fights amongst lumberjacks as a rule. Mostly when they're drinking or something like that. Then the city would take care of them.

SS: I'd figured there'd be grudges sometimes.

LG: You know, you take, as a rule these other crimes, well, they're in cities and things like that. But the lumberiack worked all summmer amongst the timber and all that and beautiful scenery and stull like, amongst nature. It changes a man, he's not so mean. All the old lumberjacks thought a lot of nature and the trees and all that.

SS: You think they, even though they were cutting the trees down they still really appreciated it, the woods?

LG: Oh yeah,yeah.

SS: What about this Russian Pete?

LG: Well, he was just a Russian and Pete was his name. I used to talk a litte bit of Russian to him. I'd get up there when I was taking on this prisonship, you know, taking these Russian prisoners and bringing 'em back from Radivastbk.(sp) in Siberia, brought 'em back to Odessa in the Black Sea. I learned a few songs there was one there:(sings a song in Russian.) You know, they got a great big, broad voice. That was good by little girl, good bye. Those were a fine bunch of Russians course, they were white Russians, see. That was before, quite a long time before the revolution, Czar Russians, and that Czar was a cruel, and his outfit terrible. I seen some terrible things, in Odessa. When we landed, these prisoners big fellas, great big fellas and the Japs were small.

SS: What do you mean, what terrible things did you see?

LG: Oh they were getting out bad on the Jews there then. And they kill the women and toss 'em out of the window, cut open. And one Russian, he told me, he said, "I got a droski(sp) you know, it's got the bells on it and ring and this guy took me for a drive in a drsky,d-r-s-k-y and he showed me some terrible things. And he showed me where the Czar's troups, cossacks, they use lead on the end of their whips. They put down gatherings or riots with those and they bury right into ya though, points on the ends of these Russian whips. What did they call 'em I can't think now.

SS: I know what they called those when they went after the Jews, they called those pograms or something like that.

LG: Yeah, but the cossack was the main soldiers though. And the cossack was loyal though, to the Czar, well, you see, the Czar wasn't overthrown til '17 and then he switched right over, well there was no other way they could go, couldnt go down any further and half the Russians had fought against the first World War against the Germans didn't have guns. They'd have to wait til the other guy got killed to pick they gun up.

SS: There probably weren't many Russians in the logging camps, huh? This Russian Pete...

LG: "ot , many, no. You know, Russia is lousy with timber and white pine. I read a story where this flyer flew over, for hours, over white pine. It'd take you ten munutes over this here. Four hours over beautiful white pine. You know, the Daps is getting most of the logs c5f this country now.

SS: Yeah.

LG: I know a guy that bought timber for two outfits, Evans outfit, another oufit in Montana, bought timber from them and while he was here, they sent him, he was down in Orofino, they sent him up to Britishh Columbia, Vancouver, to take a look at some of this imported Japanese plywood. And I knew him well,because he lived up at Bovill. And I seen him and I asked him, I said, "you just got back." He said,"Leo," he says,"we don't know how to make plywood compared with them." He said,"Some are all engraved." Went to two or three big warehouses where ships had unloaded thousand and thousands of feet of that plyboard."Oh," he said,"it was beautiful." They take the log over there and make it up and ship it back over here.

SS: And sell it as plywood?

LG: Oh yeah.

SS: Cheaper than we can?

LG: It's cheap anyhow, and much better. He told me that.

SS: What is it that makes it better than ours?

LG: Well, most, you know we have two grades, indoor and outdoor.

SS: Right.

LG: And the indoors get a little bit wet, it swells up and the rosin quits. The rosin gives way.

SS: Well, let me ask you afew more of these guys. How about this, is this right, Crooked Nick?

LG: Oy yeah, Crooked Nick, he's got another name.

SS: There's a Crooked Neck.

LG: Got another name. Can't think of it right now. Well he had a crooked neck like that. There wasn't very many of those lumberjacks deformed but this guy had a crooked neck but he was a pretty good worker.

SS: Didn't effect his work.

LG: No.

SS: Yeah.

LG: You know, they didn't hold back punches. If some deformity in aguy, he got that name.

SS: Okay, what about Joe Take a Chance?

LG: Oh yeah, anything to do, ask him to,"Alright, I'll take achance.Yeah, I'll take achanoe. Okay do, alright I'll take achance." Aperson would say,"You won't take a chance, you'll do it."

SS: How was his luck?

LG: Well, you know, good worker.

SS: Sounds like he thought he was, and then this Dirty Shirt John, is that same guy you were telling me about before? Is that another guy?

LG: Well, he always wore adirty shirt. Like Isaid, they nickname 'em something.

SS: Dirty Shirt John.

LG: There's aDirty Bert, Igive you that didn't I. He was a cook was dirty. Dirty Bert. B-e-r-t. First name was Bert and he was dirty in the kitchen. Dirty Bert, called him Dirty Bert.

SS: How was his food?

LG: Well that was dirty too. He didn't last long.(chuckles)

SS: Okay, what about Broom Face?

LG: Okay, he was the river driver. He was boss of the river drive. Broom Face Brooks. And when the weather would get cold, why, if anything didn't go right on the river drive, his face looked like it got that much longer. About the shape of a broom. I think he's dead too now, Broom Face. Broom Face Brooks. He was push on the river drive.

SS: Did many of these guys that we: e jacks up around Bovill also get in on those river drives?

LG: Yeah, they'd roll over there. You know, round here up in this country, logging started first here and then went down over to...

SS: What about this Ridge Runner? I've heard about this guy.

LG: Alright, he weren't such a bad guy. Well he wasn't an awful big man either, worked in the woods. When the war came on, men was scarce and he'd go around all these forestry camps, closed up, you know. And he'd break in and live there for a while, eat the grub and he'd go to another one, break in and eat the grub. And Iknew him, Ican't think of his name right now. Iknew him and I know one day, the head forestry come down there, I was working framing poles and was about ten men working there where I was. And he come down and he asked the superintendent he said,"I'd like to get some of your men to go with me and hunt up this Ridge Runner." "Well," the guy said,"well it's alright with me, but you have to go see them if they won't say no, if they say yes, it's fine and dandy." Well he come down anogst us and I talked to this ranger, I told him, I says, "I know quite a bit about forestry supervisors," I says, The outfit I was with there was a few rangers, but there was fella, super visors, there was more supervisors than rangers. He said, "Well". I said, I know that ranger, he's not hurting anybody. He's only stealing grub and nothing else. He's probably hungry." And then they had me talk to him and no guys went out with him. He wasn't hurting anybody. Get a little grub off'.n him. Then after awhile they blamed him for blowing up a camp but he didn't blow it up, I know.

SS: What was he like to talk to?

LG: He worked there after that soon after that he worked there and he was alright, fine and worked. .1 had him rolling poles and things like that. He was fine. But I don't think they brought that charge against him about setting fire to the camp.

SS: What about Bolo Keith?

LG: Alright, Bolo Keith, he was, Bolo Keith, he was a native of Bovill and he had 5 daughters, as pretty as could be. And the last was twins, a boy and a girl. The last two were twins, a boy and a girl. And he was load logs well, he was kind of tough on theyguy. They got gyppos loading the logs, see, and he would be the heed man loading the logs. They done it by contract. And he was rough on the crew that worked with it. So they call him Bolo Keith. But he always got, they!re all married now, and married well. And Jack O'Keith, the last two were twine and he got the wholesale oil outfit here in Bovill and Orofino too. The Shell. Great friend of mine.

SS: What about Silent Joe?

LG: Oh yes, Silent Joe, he's dead. He'd go^for weeks and never hardly say a word. And then he'd open up for about two or three days and never stop talking. You couldn't get rid of him when he talked. And he was old clam, by the time come back, when he was silent.

SS: What did he talk about, do you remember?

LG: Well, when he was silent, nothing.

SS: No, when he was talking. Did he talk about himself or the world...

LG: Anything he could think of. He was fairly intelligent.

SS: Walking Daily.

LG: Walking Daily. Is that Daily, I kind of thinking wrong that Walking Daily, but there's another name, not Daily. The guy that I'm thinking of now, Daily don't belong in there, Walking something else, I can't think of it.

SS: Well, it's okay.

LG: Now I know. He'd walk up and down in the bunkhouse when the others were asleep. And when he'd come to town like Orofino, he'd walk dosn the middle of the road at night. But Daily, there's another word, not Daily in there.

SS: How about Cruel Jimmy?

LG: Oh that's Cruel Jimmy Hollmes. That was his name, Jimmy Hollmes.H-o-l-l-m-e-s. You know. And he was cruel. He had a bunch of men working for him and boy, he worked the dickens out of em.

SS: He's another one of these tough foremen, huh?

LG: Yeah. Cruel Jimmy Hollmes.

SS: He must have been pretty bad if they called him cruel.

LG: Yeah. Course, if he wasn't quite so cruel, they'd call him cruel anyhow.

SS: Sleigh-Haul Brown?

LG: Alright, Sleigh Haul Brown, he always wanted to be in with sleigh haul. You know, there isn't muoh sleigh hauling in this country. And this is when he's 21 or 22, they done some sleigh hauling around, well the way it was, a lot of these outfits leased farmers and things like round Helmer. My uncleis name Helmer, around in there they- leased land and the state leased land to *em but gave them a certain time to get off it because the Potlatch wanted to buy the timber. Well, the Potlatch bought all the timber they could. Some of them wouldn't sell it to 'em. And that was the last sleigh hauling that old Sleigh Haul Brown did. So we call him Sleigh Haul Bill, Sleigh Haul Brown.

SS: So they had to do a sleigh haul,'cause they had to get the timber ou.t before the lease was up, right?

LG: Before the lease was up they had to get the timber out. And some of the farmers kind of wouldn't give 'em any extension and a lot did. Well, some of the guys that did give 'em an extension give the company an extension. They even left the timber on there. Got it off these other farmers land, quick!Did everything to get it off.

SS: They call that the Park Sleigh Haul out in Helmer?

LG: Yeah, the Park Sleigh Haul, 1922.

SS: What's this guy that's Cold Ham?

LG: He was a cook He got lazy and tired and he'd always serve us cold ham. Breakfast dinner and supper. Cold Ham Snyder.

SS: Cold ham with cider?

LG: Snyder.

SS: And then there's a guy called Cannon Ball?

LG: Alright, his name was Ed, I'll think of his mane after while. He was an engineer on a loggin locomotive and he'd always using the word, cannon ball. And this time he tried a couple of flats on the hill and he didn't hook up with 'em and gee, d*own the road they went. Wrecked, Cannon Ball, I'll think of his name in a minute.

SS: Cannon Ball means the guy's a high roller, right, he*s fast?

LG: Old Cannon Ball, fast roller.

SS: Well you can tell me if you think of his name later. I want to ask you about Peavy Jerry.

LG: Oh, I saw him a couple of weeks ago, he come over. Drove up with, Phil had to go up to Elk River looking on some insurance deals. But Jerry Collins, that's his name, he come out and saw us. Come out and talking to us through the window for about an hour, of the car. Laughing all the time we're telling jokes, you know, about the guysi He's very witty.

SS: Where's he live now?

LG: He lives in Bovill. Now if you're going ^up that way,you can put his name down, Jerry Collins.

SS: So why do they call him Peavy Jerry?

LG: Well, he don't like to be called it, but anyhowm he had a peavy and those lumberjacks kept the peavy in perfect shape, they'd have a piece of glass and shave it off, you know, and polish and have it just right so they could handle it. Just like a violinist with his violin. So they called mfehim Peavy Jerry. And now, put his name down there...

SS: I did.

LG: Alright, and put Teddy Collin down there.

SS: Would he keep his peavy in good shape, is that why they call him Peavy Jerry?

LG: Alright now, on that last Collin, see his wife Bea, B-e-a, Bea Collin.

SS: Okay.

LG: In Bovill, she'll give you a lot of dope. She writes for the Lewiston Paper.

SS: Where does she live?

LG: She lives in the house I used to live in. Guilfoy 37

SS: In Bovill?

LG: Yeah, right on the corner, the last house on the left as youffe going towards Elk River. That's the white house right in town, see. It's got round pillars up in the middle of it, ycu know, like those old 3 or 4, it's over hanging a room, upstairs and the pillars up there to hold it up. Nice house. And Bea,heE name Bea, and bh, she's pretty good...

(End of tape)

1:00 - Dick Ferrell wasn't too hard on the lumberjacks; Methodist church in Spokane

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Segment Synopsis: Packsack Dick Ferrell, who preached in the pan handle logging camps, slept and ate with the men, not in the company's guest facilities. He wasn't too hard on the lumberjacks, and was respected by them. He later had a Methodist church in Spokane.

7:00 - Camp 35 was the biggest camp on wheels; Axel Anderson "thawed out" a man

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Segment Synopsis: Camp 35, with 350 men, was the biggest camp on wheels since the Panama Canal was built. Axel Anderson's answer to a man who told him to shove a peavey. Axel "thawed out" a man.

10:00 - IWW's against flag and religion; blackballed local IWW's and they left the country; restaurant was burnt down; fires pinned on the IWW; refused to join the company union

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Segment Synopsis: The IWW's were against the flag and religion, so Leo wouldn't support them; but they were for improving conditions (eight hours a day and no carrying blankets). A membership card was a travelling ticket on many freight trains. The company blackballed local IWW's, and they had to leave the country because they couldn't get work. The authorities played on the company's side. A restaurant sympathetic to the Wobblies was allowed to burn down by shutting off the water hoses. Fires were pinned on the IWW. After they cleared the Wobblies out, the company improved conditions. After enlisting, Leo was met by "the Association" in Bovill. Leo was almost fired for refusing to join the company union, the 4-L's. Some IWW's were patriotic, many were bums. Most camps shut down: parts of some Wobbly songs.

29:00 - Lumberjack nicknames given to people and why

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Segment Synopsis: (The lumberjack nicknames that follow are taken from a list that Leo Guilfoy drew up some years ago. For each one he explains the reason that name was given. Other stories told about these men are mentioned below.) Tamarack Slim—ordered a tailor-made suit, and the measurements were reversed.

30:00 - Lumberjack nicknames that he gave people

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Segment Synopsis: Society Red. Starvation Pete cooking. Haydown Jack. Broken Ass Pete. Shitty Shirt Bill. The Weasel. Butterfly Pete. Midnight Joe. High Trestle. Blue Pete. Black Russian.

38:00 - Lumberjack nicknames that he gave people

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Segment Synopsis: Sour Dough. Cream Puff Pee Wee. Birds Eye. Broad Shoulder Tommy. Big Island Pete. Patter Foot. Woodem up George. Ski Jumper. Bangor Kid.

46:00 - Movement of lumbering to Idaho; fighting fires

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Segment Synopsis: Movement of lumbering from Maine to Idaho. Leo almost fought the 1910 fire. Problems fighting fires; top fires.

50:00 - Spokane employment offices; railroad work

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Segment Synopsis: Spokane employment offices. Leo sneaked off a train on his way to a job. Railroad work. Gandy Dancing Tony.

56:00 - Cook for a railroad camp; gave job away

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Segment Synopsis: Leo was assigned to cook for a railroad camp; he gave the job to a cook who was passing through, unbeknownst to the camp.

60:00 - Bean Ridge gets beat up; Paul Bunyan stories; fighting when drunk; working with nature

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Segment Synopsis: Bean Ridge gets beat up after challenging anybody with a sheepskin coat. Hurry Up Jimmy was a foreman. Company saw that the foremen improved to hold the men. Galvanized Swede, Steam Shovel Ole. Paul Bunyan stories were popular with the lumberjacks. Fighting when drunk among lumberjacks; working with nature made them less mean.

71:00 - Sailor before the Revolution; terror of the czar

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Segment Synopsis: In Odessa as a sailor before the Revolution, he saw the terror of the czar, and the Cossack killing of Jews. Plywood from Japan is better quality than ours.

76:00 - Nicknames; broke into forestry camps; sleigh hauling

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Segment Synopsis: Crooked Neck, named for his deformity. Joe Take-A-Chance. Dirty Bert. Broom Face, a river drive boss. Ridgerunner broke into forestry camps and ate the grub, and Leo defended him. Silent Joe went for weeks in silence and then talked continually for two or three days. A walking lumberjack. Cruel Jimmy worked his men hard. Sleigh hauling. Cold Ham was a lazy cook who served it all the time. Peavey Jerry took good care of his peavey.

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