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SS: SCHRAGER: The first thing I was going to ask you about GrandfatherLieuallen. And I thought I'd ask you first off if you know how he happened to come to Idaho?
LILLIAN WOOPWORTH OTNESS: I don't know very much about it. I know that hebelonged to a family that had moved west and had settled around Athena and Weston, Oregon. And several of them came up here, according to family tradition at least, to look over the location. And the others were farmers, he didn't care for that, he liked the cattle ranching. And they came up here, and of course you've heard all the stories about how the grass was nigh and all over the hills and so on, and he thought that this would be a wonderful place to raise cattle. And so he came up and first, I guess, was on a tract out near what I know as Munson farm out in the Robinson Lake area. And brought a herd of cattle up here, and in one of the hard winters, what was it. . .
SS: I'm not sure, I think it was around '73 or '74.
LO: Something like that. I think maybe that's about right. And they hadheavy snows and the ground froze, and the cattle couldn't get to the feed and he lost forty-thousand dollars worth of cattle, which was a goodly sum in those days. And apparently it was about that time that he decided to try something else—the store and that sort of thing.
SS: So he was probably one of the main stockmen in the country, if not themain one, when he came that herd.
LO: That might be, I just don't know.
SS: You know when they say that in the History of Ndrth Idaho that he was thefirst man to settle in the valley, Paradise Valley, do you know if that's so or not?
LO: I really don't.
SS: The summer of 1871. . .
LO: Yea, that1 was the time that my mother always said that the family came.But I really don't know, he was one of the early ones, certainly. And at one time he and Russell and McGregor and Deakin owned property that adjoined at Sixth and Main Street—it was a four corner place. And he had the property west of ^ain and north of Sixth at that time. Now I suppose that was a homestead that he took over from somebody.
SS: Did neafor, was it Neff that he got it from? This is what I've heard, Idon't.
LO: I don't Rnow whether he got all that land from Neff or not,or whether itwas just the store. I thought from what mother had told me that it was the store he acquired from Neff and the post office went along with it. But I don't know whether Neff had the homestead or not.
SS: But do you think the reason that he went into town and started a storewas because of that hard winter, probably?
LO: I think so, that's what I've understood from my mother as the reason. Andapparently he was very public spirited and civic-minded and interested in developing the town. And was busy in whatever was going on that way.
SS: Well, I wonder if the town was just his store to start with?
LO: I think it was a little more than that oh, maybe to start with, but lateron the store was located at First and Main, y'know where the Bank of Idaho is now, and White's Drug Store was across the way—you've seen those pictures with that. Dr. had his dental office in that same block too, north of First Street. I heard my mother tell about how she used to play with Margaret McP alley. They lived there within about a half block of each other. This was while my mother was still living there, on First before they built the house on Almon Street. Before that, she told me once they'd been in a house that was located where the old post office is now.
SS: Wheny had the store, did they live right by it? Or was it a cabin?
LO: Well, I had the impression that it was very close there, and Mother usedto be in the store quite a bit, I guess, as a little girl, and she told Me about how the Indian women would come in and they'd be so fascinated with her red hair. They'd want to hold her and play with her because she had red hair, and she was pretty small at that time, must have been.
SS: Do you remember anything else that she said about what the store was like?
LO: No, she didn't say a great deal about what the store was like. This alsowas during the time when they had the Indian scare and they had Fort Russell, y'know, but I think she was only about three years old then. Wasn't that in '77?
SS: That's what Homer David says too, that she was in the fort.
LO: Yes,well she has told me about that—about how people in general wouldgo and work their farms during the daytime and then go hole up in the fort at night. She would go with her mother, now I don't know whether, oh yes by that time they must have been in town, I don't think they were on that farm any longer. And her mother would hitch up the wagon at the end of the day and take the children up to the fort. They'd go in there and stay overnight. But that didn't seem to last very long.
SS: So they spent their days on the farm—the women and children did too.
LO: Un hum.
SS: Did she remember at all what it was like in the fort? Wh± she did inthe fort?
LO: Not very much. She didn't remember very much of that. Somebody fromSpokane wanted to come down and interview her about that and she discouraged because she said she was just too young to have remembered very much about it.
SS: Three or four is probably about the threshold of memory.
LO: Um hum, urn hum. No, she didn't seem to have very clear recollections ofthat and I can certahly understand it .
SS: What about this question of the naming of Moscow as you understand it?I actually read in that History of North Idaho, I was looking at the other day, they gave the credit for deciding to name the town Moscow.
LO: Well, it seems to have been the object of considerable specdation, and soon. I think Grandfather probably was very influential, was right in the business of planning on that. Mother sort of changed her stories as the years went by. For years she told me that the reason they chose Moscow was that they wanted a name that no other towns in the United States Or maybe I misunderstood it—maybe they just didn't want one that was very close because apparently Neff had come from near Moscow, Pennsylvania.Then later on Mother told me that they also wanted something that sounded citified and glamourous, and that Moscow, Russia filled the bill as far as that was concerned.
SS: Did she have any opinion about the question of Neff's flaming the townafter his hometown.when she talked about it?
LO: I'm trying to remember. It seems the way she used to tell it, they reacheda consensus on it, and of course they had called it Hog Heaven beforehand and the women objected to that because they ttought that was not a very dignified name for a beautiful valley like this. So they discarded Hog Heaven and they wanted to call it Paradise, but I think the post office wouldn't approve that because there were ether towns that had that same name. She was very definite about the fact that it had nothing to do with Russians among the population. Somebody had written a book—Mother said when he was old and senile and said that that was the reason that there were Russians that justwould come down out of the hills occasionally and then disappear back into the hills, and that they were responsible for naming it Moscow. She was very positive about that fact that that wasn't true. And my father, when he was county auditor, did a good deal of checking with the county records. And he said there just were no Russian names around Moscow. Mother always felt that the reason that theory got accepted was because it appeared in print, and that it wasn't reliable at all.
SS: I don't know why there's such a controversy over the naming of Moscow,but there really seems to be.
LO: Well,and so many theories. I have a clipping some place that somebodyhad given to Mother and she just pooh-poohed the whole thing. It had to do with somebody pointing to my grandfather's beard and saying, "You look like a Russian with that long long beard, why don't we name it Moscow" And my mother thought that was perfectly ridiculous—there was just nothing to that.
SS: Y'know on this Hog Heaven, was that supposed to be because they ran hogsin the valley.
LO: Well, hogs liked to dig the camas, has been my understanding of thetradition and grew very fat on the camas root. And of course, there no question that there was camas around here. The men called it Hog Heaven because it was so good for the stock.
SS: What about the Indians that used to camp here in the early days? Didyou ever hear about them from your mother?
LO: Not very much, she used to mention the Indains coming into the store, andof course she was aware of the fact that the Indian trails had run through here, but she didn't have very much to say about it. In fact, I can't remember her mentioning them particularly except in regard to her red hair.
SS: What about what Mr.Lieuallen sold mostly and the kind of business thathe had in those days? Have you gleaned anything from looking at those ledgers that he had?
LO: Well, yes, I think it was pretty generalfwhat you'd expect of a countrystore. You know, tools that were commonly used, and produce, and staples 4nd apparently he was taking produce in trade, taking eggs and vegetables that people bought in and they got credit for and so on. Oh, fabrics, and hats, and shoes, and just the whole gamut of what you'd supply if you were running a store in a little frontier town.
SS: I read that he had to go to Walla Walla to get the first stock that helaid in, but I'm curious about where he would have continued to get his stock after that time. I wonder if he had to keep going back to Walla Walla since it was before the railroad came in?
LO: He probably did. I don't remember hearing Mother talk about that verymuch. She did talk about how he banked up at St. John because there wasn't a bank here in Moscow. And he would ride horseback up to St. John, and when he was going was rather carefully guarded secret because he'd be carrying gold and didn't want to get waylaid. But I don't remember that she ever said very much about where he got his stock.
SS: Have you heard the story that when the mail first came, it was leftdeposited there in a shoe box in the store. I guess I read that someplace. He started with a shoebox.
LO: Yes, I think I have. Of course most of the early post offices were something similar to that. Mail would be left in somebody's home or in a business, something like that, that may well be true about the shoe box.
SS: And then he sold his store and turned to selling land and plattedthe town of Moscow?
LO: Yes, that was it. He had financial reverses. Somebody absconded withmoney from a local bank and with a lot of records, a lot of things that had been left there for safe keeping, including a great meny notes that my from grandfather had taken people who owed him money. And without the notes he couldn't collect. So that, according to family tradition, he lost a good deal of money that way add was forced to make a choice between trying to maintain the store and trying to sell real estate and do that. And because he was so interested in building up the town he chose to do that and gave up the store.
SS: Have you heard anything about this business of him platting the town andthen selling land?
LO: No, but I imagine that that is true because Lieuallen's additionis one of the sections of Moscow, and Mrs. Lieuallen, I think whether he was involved in the early platjfcing of the town. Now it extended to other parts of the town besides what he owned I don't know.
SS: I don't know, but I thought the book said actually he platted the townof Moscow in 1880.
LO: He may have.
SS: Did you tell me there was something about him giving free lots to people?
LO: That's what my mother told me—that he would give lots free to peopleif they would build houses on them. This was a device for promoting building up the town. Of course at that time lots weren't very expensive anyhow. Lots down along Asbury and Lieuallen street probably sold for thirty-five dollars, but he was interested in getting people to stay here and build homes for themselves.
SS: Do you know anything about his political convictions?
LO: No, I don't. I think Mother told me he was a Democrat. And havingcome from Tennessee, that could well be. But I don't know whether his convictions were very strong.
SS: Was it he that you told me that didn't care for his Black Republicancherries ?
LO: No, that was my other grandfather—that was my grandfather Woodworth whowas a very strong Democrat. And he had this cherry tree in his orchard and he loved everything about the cherries except the name—Black Republican,
SS: Can you tell m e overall what you understand your grandfather's being like?What kind of person he was that's come down through history anyway as ' the founding father of the town?
LO: Only that he seemed to be mixed up in everything that was goingpn. Heseemed to be involved in everything that was developmental or innovative in the town. But beyond that I don't have any very strong impressions because I never knew either one of my Lieuallen grandparents.
SS: Are there other things that your mother told you about growing up inMoscow when she was a young person, that you remember?
LO: She went to Portland to school before there was a high school here. Shewent to St. Helen's Hall in Portland, and I suppose she must have gone on the train—by that time the railroad would have been in here, wouldn't it? She was born in '74.
SS: She'd be eleven.
LO: Uh huh. And I don't know how many years she went down there,but I know that she did go down there to boarding school. And then when the high school was started here, she attended the high school. And I thought for years that she had graduated from high school here, but it turned out that she had married my father in January before she was due to graduate in May, so she didn't actually finish high school. Oh, I think there was a lot of activity with the young people—that is, Mother belonged to a mandolin club, and she played the piano and the mandolin club apparently had quite a membership. £ have pictures of the members of the mandolin club—there must have been, oh, maybe ten, twelve mandolin players. They used to play around for various social events. I think like any small town, they made their own fun, their social life.
SS: She didn't go to college then?
LO: No, in those days married women didn't go to college. They didn't evengo to college when I was in schoolj It was unusual for any married women to be in college, and the ones that were, we thought were sort of odd. I suppose when I was in college, I knew maybe half a dozen. And this was just.
SS: What would you think would be odd about it?
LO: Well, married women stayed home and took care of their families. It seemsridiculous now that it would be odd, but even the ones that I knew in college mostly were wives of staff members who somehow or another hadn't completed their education. And I knew two or three that finished up here.
SS: Single women though—it was completely acceptable for them to go to collegein you mother's day?
LO: Oh, I don't know about that. Yes, it was acceptable, but there justweren't very many of them that did. There weren't very many men that did either. When they first started the University, they ran a preparatory school because the students that came were not really high school graduates a lot of them. And there was a lot of talk when I was a child about the prep school. It was discontinued after a while, when they started getting enough students that were prepared, but when it first started out the prep school was an important part of it.
SS: Was the prep school actually a high school?
LO: No, but I think it was sort of remedial courses for those who hadn't
SS: -finished high school and who needed more background. And people came from other parts of the state to go to that before going to the university?
LO: That's my understanding. They'd do prep school work and then go on andfinish their college. I don't know how long that went on. But it was a common term in the community.
SS: Do you think they were taught by the college teachers or had a separatefaculty of their own, do you know that?
The prep school? I don't know, I just don't know abut that.Now, your uncle, that was your mother's brother, he went to the college? Uh huh, uh huh. He was enrolled—the one that was the athlete. Yea. Yes he was a student in college, but not for very long because he died very young. And he would have been the only one of my mother's family. She had a brother and sister who died very young.
SS: Was that sickness?
LO: Oh, I think it was probably the diphtheria epidemic. I don't know howold they lived to be—I'd have to lo«k up the family records on that not old. And she and this brother were the only ones that grew up at ail.
SS: What- did you hear about his prowess as an athlete?
LO: Well, apparently he was a very good athlete. He was a baseball player,and he was very good in track. He got lots of medals in track meets, and so on. I doubt if he was around when they started having football. I don't know just when that was, but I don't think he was involved in that—but lots of baseball. I have medals that he won in intercollegiate track meets.
LO: You know Mrs. Bush was one of Governor McConnell's daughters. And shelived up on the hill there, kind of yards back to back with the Davids, the Homer Davids, and the Davids had four hoys. One time she was out in her back yard and she heard some of the David boys, I don't know which ones, talking on the other side of the fence. And they were trying to say the dirtiest words that they knew. And one of them said, "Oh, I know a good one—maure, manure!" And after a while another one said, "Oh, I know a better one—corset coverI" Now you remember that Sam, when you want something really pornographic
SS: Yea. (laughs) Things sure must have been different for that to be thedirtiest word they could think of.
LO: (laughs) Do you know what corset covers were? It was a kind of camisolethat women wore under their dresses—well, it was the top to the petticoats, except petticoats in those days were probably separate. And the corset covers would tuck in under them and sometimes oh you know they had lace and insertion and ribbon and that sort of thing.
SS: You know I have to think about it—I really don't know what corset coversare, I mean I figured what they'd be but. . .
LO: Well, camisole is another name for it, but it was really going a long wayto find a dirty word. Even'manure.'
SS: Did you know the McConnell daughters?
LO: Yea, I knew Carrie, well slightly. They were of my mother's generation.I knew Carrie quite well because she lived here all her life, I guess, and was a friend of my mother's for a long, long time. And Lived within a block of Mother during Mother's last fifteen, twenty years that she lived here in town. The others, Mamie Borah and Ollie Lu«ldbman, I met occasionally but I didn't knaw them well at all.
SS: Did you ever hear much about what the social life used to be like aroundthe mansion when they were girls? I've heard that it was really quite something from Lola Clyde,that.
LO: No, I don't think I'd ever heard very much about that.
SS: I guess maybe it was more that the Mcfbnnell daughters were sort of thecenter of Moscow society when they were young.
LO: That may well be.
SS: 0. K. now what's the story about your brother Jack's run in with thepresident of the university?
LO: My Uncle Jack.
SS: That's right, I mean your uncle.
LO: According to Mother he had been competing in these track meets and he wasone of the successful ones, and the University of Idaho had a track meet scheduled with Washington Agricultural College at Pullman. And the rivalry was quite strong, and Idaho had been beating the ag college. President Gault called my uncle in and said that in the interest of good relations between the two colleges he didn't want the University of Idaho to win so big. So he wanted my uncle to see that he didn't win too many events. And my uncle said he didn't play that way—he played to win and he would feel he had to do his best and win or lose as he could. President Gault said that if he disobeyed him he would expell him from school. And he called, according to Mother's story, he called my grandfather and told him that if Jack didn't agree to do this that he would expell him from school. Jack refused to agree to do it and he did expell him from school.
SS: think Jack got to run the races? (laughs)
LO: I don't think he got to take part In that meet—I could be wrong aboutthat, but I think he was not allowed to compete.
SS: Now that's something that wouldn't get very far these days either. I meanhis father would probably be down there right now talking to the president of the university.
LO: Urn hum, probably. But in those days of course administrators had agood deal more power over individuals than they do now—that is it was a kind of dictatrship—you either shaped up or you couldn't stay in school.
SS: I'm really curious about what the university was like backin the early days. I guess there weren't very many students at all when your uncle was going there.
LO: Oh, I don't imagine so. I don't imagine there would have been very many.And for many years my mother knew all the students at the university because there were so few of them and they were fairly well integrated into the life of the town apparently. Being in musical circles as she was, she just knew everybody out of the first few graduating classesr- I don't imagine there*d be anybody she didn't know.
SS: There were some events then where they'd get together for music and thatsort of thing.
LO: I think so. I think that was quite common.
SS: Do you know how she met your father?
LO: No, I really don't. She was very young, that is she must have been,well she was not quite eighteen when she was married, and I don't know how long she had known Dad, but he probably was working here in town and the town was probably small enough that everybody knew everybody else. I don't know beyond that.
SS: Then after they got married they stayed here for some time?
LO: Yes, they lived here for quite some time, then I think Father went upto Wallace and they lived there for a little while. And then they lived in Lewiston for a short time when my brother was a baby, when he was very young, and then came back here. Dad was kind of the auditor at one time—I don't know exactly when, and he'd been in the abstract business. I think that's what he was doing in Wallace and also in Lewiston. And then they lived here. I was born here,apparently by that time they were settled down here.
SS: Then your father had this s»rt of wanderlust for farming?
LO: Yea, I think he was a frustrated farmer because he went up to Canadalater on and farmed a big ranch up there for Dr. Gritman. Dr. Gritman, I guess, was making quite a bit of money and wanted to put it to work and this was one of his ventures, was this farming in Canada. He had quite a big ranch up there near Champion in Alberta. Dad went up there several years and farmed for him. I suppose by that time I was in high school— maybe not—yea, proably I was in high school by that time.
SS: Well, so he would go up and farm part of the year and then come back down.
LO: Yes, that was it. Then later he farm^for himself in Saskatchewan forseveral seasons. I think that he sold out up in there about 1926, as I remember, that was about the time—'25 or '26.
SS: Funny, his family seemed to kave moved around a lot too,as I read some ofthe materials that he dictated to you, they seemed to have been in a lot of places.
LO: Um hum. Yes his father had farmed near Genes ee, and then he had astore at Uniontown, and then he had a farm down on the breaks of the Snake near Uniontown, and then moved back to Moscow. And he had come from Montana in 1876. They had moved from Montana—they went down through, oh by Henry's Lake and down through south Idaho and around and up to get to Moscow, to get to this part of the country So that was quite a little trek in itself.
SS: Were you here when you were a kid in Moscow? Most of your growing up. . .
LO: Um hum. Except for the couple of years that we spent in California I spentall my life here until I was out of college.
SS:: tell me about that trip when you went down to California and Mexico?
LO: Well, we went to California because of my mother's health, and while hewas down there somebody sold him on the idea that he could, I suppose, homestead and raise wheat in New Mexico. So we all went off to a little place called Playas in New Mexico which was right down near the Mexican border. It was just, oh such a very small place. There wasn't anything there but a store. I don't even remember a gas station—maybe there was one, but the main line of the Southern Pacific came through there, it didn't stop at Plafcs unless you telegraphed ahead that you were going to flag it, and then it would stop and pick up passengers or it would let off paying passengers, but it picked up the mail by hooking it off a pole and tossed off mailbags. We were down there only a few months because it was at the time of the Mexican border trouble, and the week that we arrived there the postal service had held some kind of meeting of postmasters in that area, and they had gone into a town called Columbus, New Mexico. Pancho Vi'a's bandits had crossed the border and raided the town and had taken some of conventioneering postmasters out and lined them up and shot them. And this was all the talk just about the time we arrived. And the postmaster -from Plias had been there and was killed. Then later, after what I think probably was three or four months only, we left there very hurriedly because someone came riding in to our yard one day and said that a young fellow and his wife who were ranching about, oh I think maybe it was about thirty miles away from us had been killed by their Mexican farmhands who had then taken off across the border into Mexico. And my mother decided that was no place for her children. So we left.
LO: We left the very next day, and Father left in about a week or two. Sothat was the end of that. But of course that was much earlier than Father was in Canada because this was about the time I was starting to school. I think I had been part of a year to school in Los Angeles before this, then we went back to California and I went to first grade again there.
SS: But he decided to come back from California too?
LO: The reason that we decided to come back from California was that thehouse on Almon Street that father Lieuallen had built had been rented while we were in California to the Kappa Sigma Fraternity for a fraternity house, and while we were gone they decided to build their own house on the campus. And so Dad in the meantime had gotten the idea from observing apartment houses in California, he had decided that he could convert that house on Almon Street into an apartment house. So when the Kappa Sigs gave it up, we came back here and Dad spent, oh what must have been six months or so anyhow, remodeling it into apartments, and that was really the first apartment house in Moscow. It was, I think, the first one to have electric ranges and to have shower-baths and folding beds—beds that folded down out of the wall. This was quite the thing. The waiting list to get apartments there—there was always a waiting list in the early times, up until the time of the depression.
SS: Who were the people that wanted to stay there?
LO: Oh, we had bankers and physicians and university professors.
SS: Was this supposed to be the newest thing in living?
LO: Well yes. It was innovative; this was just new for Moscow.
SS: You mentioned to me before about the built-in kitchen that he had. Besidesthe stove were there other thijgs that he added?
LO: Well, a kitchen cabinet. And this was a combination cupboard, and itwas a free-standing piece of furniture—it wasn't really built in, but it was a combination cupboard and breakfast table. It was a compact of unit. There was a place for supplies and dishes and the counter pulled out to make a place that you could eat, you know, like a breakfast table. And had a built in flour storage place with a sifter right at the bottom so that you could load a sack of flour into it and 'sift it right on out of there--you didn't have to scoop it out. And it had, oh, bread drawer, silverware drawer, all this sort of thing.
SS: Did he do the remodeling himself on these places?
LO: Oh, he did quite a bit of it. He hired carpenters and plumbers—he wasquite good atthat sort of thing—he was good with his hands. And I'm sure that he did the designing of it, but he hired carpenters to work on it.
SS: Do you have any idea of what kind of rent he was gettting in those days?
LO: Oh, I suppose, well I think the most expensive apartment was the groundfloor apartment. We lived on the ground floor and there was one other ground floor apartment, and I think that rented for fifty dollars. And I'm sure that was the most expensive one. SS: You know there's a story about your mother that I remember you telling her before and that was about playing with the gold.
LO: Oh yes, about playing with the sack of twenty dollar gold pieces.She didn't have very toys, I suppose, and so at least once, maybe only once, she was given this sack of twenty dollar gold pieces to play with. And at the end of the day when they checked up they found that one was missing. And they asked her about it and she said, "Yes." And she took them out and showed them where she had planted it. She knew about planting seeds and growing more, and so she planted this twenty dollar gold piece in the hope of getting more. So they dug up the twenty dollar gold piece. I suppose you know that the streets Almon, Asbury and Lieuallen are named for my grandfather—that was his name—Almon Asbury Lieuallen And Lilly is named for my mother, but through some error the streets were supposed to be in order—Almon, Asbury, Lieuallen and then Lilly, but somehow in drawing up the plat they got them in the wrong order, so they run Almon, Asbury, Lilly, and then Lieuallen —in that order.
SS: Well, that's not too bad if it's Almon, Asbury and Lilly Lieuallen.That's really quite nice.
LO: Yes, I thought that was kind of interesting.
SS: Do you know anything about Noah Lieuallen.
LO: No, I don't, not anything like firsthand. I know that he was a schoolteacherhere and that he was probably related to Mother. He probably could have been an uncle—I just don't know. But there was a big family of the Lieuallens down around Athena and Weston and quite a few of them came up here too. And I know that Mother had Lieuallen cousins and so on, but I just don't about Noah Lieuallen.
SS: What about how your father got to know so many of the oldtimers andthe old happenings, like he seemed to know,from what you told me, quite a bit about about how the university got started—he personally knew Willis Sweet and those people?
LO: Well, I think that he was just here early, he and his family must havecome in about '76 or '7 and he grew up in the area and then became a young businessman and interested in politics and so on. And I think he just knew everybody that there was locally. And he knew Willis Sweet, and he knew oh a lot of the prominent early men like that. After all, Moscow was pretty small and I think that a man in business like my father probably did know all the other businessmen and all the politicians.
SS: You told me he was a staunch Republican?
LO: He was raised a Democrat—he was raised by the grandfather that didn't likethe Black Republican cherry . And it was a great source of sorrow to my grandfather when Dad turned out to be a backsliding Democrat. And when he from converted being a Democrat to a Republican, he became one of the most reactionary conservative. Republicans that you could hope to find anywhere. We used to tease him about belonging to the Neanderthal wing of the Republican party. And I asked my mother at one time if there ever was a president of either party that Dad approved of and she said, "No, none of them suited him."They all did most things wrong." No, he was really very, very conservative, once he quit being a Democrat.
SS: What would that mean? I mean can you think of any particulars that hefelt very conservative about?
LO: Well, I think he was kind of all for big business. He felt that businesswas what had built this country, and thatpusinessmen deserved quite a bit of credit and consideration and so on. And he used to get quite upset when my brother and I would advance the idea that we didn't think that business was that much entitled to special privileges and so on. He just was not a man who had liberal ideas.
SS: Well, I guess you and your brother picked up some when you were young.Those ideas that business wasn't entitled to special privilege were ideas that you absorbed then.
LO: Well, yes. I think that we, maybe when we grew up and got away fromFather's influence and had little chance to look around for ourselves that we saw things a little bit differently. Maybe it was the generation gap, but. . .
SS: Well, if he hated all the presidents do you think that was mostly 'causehe didn't like the federal government?
LO: No, I don't think he hated them all, but I think he just felt that theycould have done things differently. And I think : he probably felt that Hoover was one of the better presidents that we had. He disliked Roosevelt very much. He just thought Roosevelt was terrible.
SS: It's funny fron what I've heard, it seems like a number of Democratsbecame Republicans during Cleveland's time. I think that 1893 depression turned quite a few.
LO: That might have had something to do with it. I never did know what itwas particularly that caused him to change.
1:00 - Why grandfather came to Moscow; raising cattle; The men who owned property in downtown Moscow
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Segment Synopsis: Grandfather A.A. Lieuallen came to Moscow from the Athena, Oregon area (1871), because the land looked good for cattle raising. In the severe winter of 1873 he lost $40,000 in cattle. Then he bought Moscow's first store (at First and Main) from Samuel Neff. Lieuallen, Russell, MacGregor and Deakin owned adjoining property at Sixth and Main, Lieuallen's being the northwest part. His civic-mindedness.
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16:00 - Goods sold at family store; Not banking in Moscow; selling the store and developing the town
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Segment Synopsis: Goods sold at Lieuallen store. He traded for farm produce. He rode horseback to St. John to bank, and kept his going a secret to avoid getting waylaid. A man absconded with money and records from Moscow's first bank, so Lieuallen lost the notes he was owed. He then decided to sell his store and work on developing the town. He gave people free lots for building on them. His concern for innovation in the town.
24:00 - Mother going to school in Portland but then getting married before graduation; women rarely went to college
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Segment Synopsis: Family went to California for mother's health, and father decided to homestead near Playas, New Mexico. The week they arrived Pancho Villa's band shot the postmasters from Playas and other towns at a- postal meeting. Mother finally insisted they leave, after hearing that a rancher and his wife had been shot by their hired hands.
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