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This conversation with Glen Gilder and Agnes Clark Gilder took place at theirhome in Spring Valley not far from Troy, Idaho on June 28, 1978. The interviewer was Sam Schrager. Please see the PDF transcript for labels of who is speaking.
GLEN GILDER: — clear across the United States.
SAM SCHRAGER: Agnes was telling me she wasn't too sure that there'd be a planeback East. Now that they've landed, there'd sure better be. I was going to ask you guys about the-Fourth of July, since you were telling me about a picnic and I can remember you saying once that you used to have picnics pretty regularly on the Fourth. Is that a tradition?
Used to be, used to be.
Used to be fifty years ago. Now they've kind of quit it, butthey're talking about having some kind of a picnic at the CC dam, from around Troy, I don't know who's in on it or whether- Everybody's supposed to come. What about it fifty years ago? I mean, was it an annual- every year there was a picnic? Well, where I came from, I don't know about around here, but thev didn't so much around here, but over on the coast they used to have a neighborhood picnic and we all went. Of course, I was achild then,-fmore than fifty years ago. I, like everybody else thought had to have something, some sort of doings on did. And every little town that^couldn't go to the next town conveniently, they had a picnic and generally had a ball game. The,one that I remember around here was in Moscow and everybody. and that was in 1919, I think.
Well, that was just a big Fourth of July celebration.It was a pretty big one alright. And then there was one at Pullman about the next year.
But the same year they had a big blowout at Kennedy Ford andmost neighborhoods had aGrange picnic, aSunday School picnic or a town picnic, they had something. Or just a bunch of fa milies get together. If there wasn't anything else going on my folks and adozen or so neighbors would all go up to Laird Park and have their own picnic. And they'd get up there there'd be people from here and everywhere and there was horseshoe games and baseball games, there was always a lot going on. After we were married a couple of years, we went,to Park. Yeah, we went up there and into Deke Johnson's and the Butterfields and Nelsons and who went with us? - Yes, just congregate that way. Two or three families or twenty-five fa milies or whole neighborhood, it didn't matter. So, it just depended on the year, what people did on the Fourth?
You're still talking about the Fourth?
Well, the Fourth, as a general thing. But it was customary.We'd celebrate the Fourth of July in some way. Harvard- it'd be in town or else Laird Park, one or the other. And everybody in the neighborhood was there, there just was no exceptions. You were talking about how the neighborhood would - people would get together for different occasions, but the store was the place people would meet.
Yeah, the store- every day at mailtime, that was for sure. Especially in the wintertime.
And church was a place- no, it was the school.
Oh, for parties and literary and such as that, why, the schoolwas the social point and then later on they got, I don't know that it was later on, but they got thefcrange Hall and then that was, of course, we congregated. And then in the summertime, why, anyplace that happened to strike your fancy. Ball games was one way.
I said ball games sometimes were-Yeah, that was important. Was this Princeton versus Harvard?
Yes.Well, they had one at Kennedy Ford- around Kennedy Ford and up there around Yeah. They had pretty good- Yeah, and on up Deep Creek, Potlatch had a very good team. They hardly ever played the country boys, they played the larger towns, Genesee and Colton and Colfax and such. But used to be a ball game at Kennedy Ford four years out of five on the Fourth. Was it town against town usually? Neighborhood against neighborhood, as a rule, but they did- Ken nedy Ford against Viola or Kennedy Ford against rCty or the Indians up at Tensed. And hard tell who it would be, but al ways something going on.
What would the boundaries be of your neighborhood?
None. It'd depend on-Well, yeah, in a way, but there wasn't any. Post office distributation or school district or something like that might draw a line, but actually there wasn't any. If Princeton had a real tough game coming up, they're just as apt as not to come up to Harvard and ge1^ their best players and go play someplace else, maybe Tensed, Deep Creek, Mountain Home. So Princeton could be your enemy one time and you could be on their side when they played against Tensed? Yeah. (Chuckles) Yeah.
Have you ever heard of this one up here at"Eary and Troy?Well, yes, still goes pretty strong. (Laughter) Won't even look at each other yet, some of 'em. Did they ever get on the same side to play Bovill? I don't know about that.
Might, Potlatch or something like that.They might if they were going to get a game with some real tough team like Potlatch or Genesee, theyA double up. With the high school they had- Well, the high school, I guess you got Deary and Bovill going together against Troy. That's only recent, though. Well, I tell you, there was some awful feuds went on in those days over this baseball. and basketball Wasn't just baseball, it was footballAand everything else. Well, it's basketball now, but in early days ^didn'tfconsider basketball, didn't even have 'em. Didn't have it till the schools organized their teams. Do you remember afeud in between- was it Princeton and Harvard? The feeling? The feuding.
Oh, in the baseball game, yeah, yeah. Used to get some prettymad people and on the other side'd be some pretty happy people. Not very often.
There was some real unfriendly talk between them, but I wasn'tthere so li lt's funny, they go to a baseball game and have a row-in the baseball game they'd play the tightest game that they possibly could and have several arguments during the game; next Satur day night go to Princeton or Harvard and they'd have a dance and they'd just mingle in thereAlike they was all brothers and sisters! (Chuckles)
Oh, they had to make their own amusement and they madeit. Horse races used to be quite common. Princeton, you know that coop store there that the lane runs right up towards the hill there? I've seen a lot of horse races on that. Good ones, some of 'em. Kennedy Ford had a round track up there and horse racing and rodeos and so on was quite common there and would be on the Fourth of July but they'd probably have two or three or four during the summer. The Indians would come from Lapwai, Tensed and anybody that had a good horse anyplace in the coun try, he'd try to be there and try to get some of that money. I think it cost about 5 to enter a horse in the^races and then they'd split that among the winners. And they generally took up a collection, pass a hat before the race and^thejt kinda split that. Give some little incentive. Wasn't very likely to get over2 or 3 or 5 at the very best, but they had their fun.
Was there sidebetting going on, too?
Was there much sidebetting, too?
Oh, absolutely, yes. Yeah. Didn't matter whether there was alaw against it or not, they bet all they could stand. Some of 'em bet all they had, you know, cash in their pockets. There was just lots of excitement, rivalry and such over those horse races.
Were you under much incentive to support your neighbor's horse,your friend's horse? Bet on him.
I didn't know enough about it to think I was a bettor. I'dprobably spent all the money I had before it got to that point. Oh, sometimes bet a dollar or two, if I had it. But it was the older guys, sportier guys went in for that. The younger guys kind of got a kick out of watching it and that was the extent of it.
Were those Indian horses really hard to beat?That's right. That's right, , however there was some damn good horses around Palouse and Potlatch and Kennedy Ford, too. Some darn good ones, but they never went out of their own county, they never tried to go to Spokane or Pendleton or Colfax or any of those places, they stayed little.
The horses they'd race, would they be horses that had beenraised for riding horses instead of work horses? Yeah. Yeah, there was riding and driving. There was some pretty good French coaches in the country at that time, some German coaches. Quite a few Hamiltonians and an occasional thoroughbred. But there were lots of- these were only breds, they weren't halfbloods that we had. But every now and then some of these little knotheaded broncos caught wild would clean house. They would. Some of 'em were terribly fast. There is something I've kind of wondered about, is how much peo ple did just straight horseback riding in those days as compared to going by wagon.
Well, if I was going to town I'd go horseback, if she was goingto town better take the hack or buggy. And the kids, of course, would have to have a place to ride, so they'd require a wagon, hack, buggy, whatever had.
You've driven from Colfax- You know I showed you wheremy granddad lived out there, showed you the road that went out to his place. They used to start from there about five or six o'clock in the morning and sometime get into Spokane and have their horses taken care of and probably had supper eaten by seven thirty. Approximately seventy-five miles, approximately ten hours, an average of about seven and a half miles an hour. And some of rem could make an average of ten miles an hour and hold it all day, and drive a hundred miles with abuggy; nothin' to it. They'd leave that place right there and in about seven hours they'd be in Spokane. Had an old team, Dan and Lou, half Hamiltonian and Ifpect half was cayuse, Idon't know. They were only about seventeen or eighteen hands high and about two hands wide but they could travel. How far is it to—? Palouse to Spokane?
Well, no, from, well, Kennedy Ford to Spokane?Somewheres in the neighborhood of seventy-five miles, I don't know.
It's just 100 here, or used to be.tfeah. Well, with those kinks and such, about twenty-five miles down there and you'd have to go through Moscow and then come down here, this coming down here wouldn't count. But seventy-five or eighty miles. If they had to go to Spokane, they'd just simply go. I don't know of any time but once that they ever drove in the wintertime with a sleigh, but they'd go in the summertime when it was warm.
In those days had to-get^ through on the train, no troubleat all. But they've taken all those off and want to take all the rest off, I guess.
I know that's true and I can't see why they did it. They couldhave gone down to Kennedy Ford, a mile from the house, caught the train to Palouse and then caught the train from Palouse to Spokane. I don't know.
Did they haul any stuff back with 'em?No, not as a rule. Did they stay overmight when they got to Spokane? Oh, they'd have to. Maybe stay a week. Where would they stay, I wonder?
Oh, I'll tell you, they had friends all over town, but if theydidn't want to go there, they always went to the Ridpath. But they had friends all over town- good ones. Sort of seems to me like you're saying they're taking a vacation. (Chuckles)
There was always some definite reason for 'em to go. Maybe itwas a meeting of this or that, Farmers Union, Grange or what have you, but there was always something definite to go tor. You know, you mentioned the Farmers Union. That's something else that I'd like to find out— something about. What was that? I never even heard of it until the last fifteen or twenty years. Oh, it's been longer than that, they've had it for years. It was an organization of farmers to try and better their conditions. Markets and such. It never accomplished very mnch. It couldn't get big enough. Then here about twenty years ago, they reorganized and made adefinite effort to get in all the new members they could and they created some fuss alright. And about that time they got that National Farmers Organization, and they did quite abit of good and on the other hand, they didn't accomplish near what they thought they were going to. oh this farmers strike, just recently. Does that have its roots in the kind of movement of the Farmers Union.was? Iimagine it did. Ithink it was acombination of Farmers Union and NFO; Ireally don't know about it for sure, but Ithink it was. And, out of all the three of 'em they accomplished about the same thing that the national strike did last winter. They brought some attention to the farmer from higher up government. But, it was more or less ineffective. Idon't know, they didn't any of 'em accomplish what they had thought they would. Was the Farmers Union back in the old days, was it something that everybody supported,or was the opinion about it amongst the people, the local people, divided?
Oh, about half, maybe, of the farmers in an area would sign upand take out amembership in it and then about half of them would go to ameeting or two and then they'd all go dormant and there'd be two or three, maybe five or six would keep it enough alive to keep it going and then^me up some other little surge and they'd go ahead again; up and down. But farmers are aclass of people that you can't organize. There's wheat farmers, there's cotton farmers, there's corn farmers and there's pig farmers and dairy farmers and wheat farmers, and what'11 apply to one won't touch the other one, even in the small neighborhood. Used to find dairy men and wheat, poultry, this and that and all of 'em had a dif ferent slant on what they wanted. And if the program that was shown to them didn't suit 'em, they just left it alone. Grange has come the closest to organizing neighborhoods and keeping them together and serving a purpose, better, I think, than any of the others, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so, I don't know.
SS: What makes the Grange, say, better than the Farmers union as anorganization?
GLEN: They didn't cater or try to go to any specific point in the business, but they wanted to include everybody, and they did. They had one in just about every other town. You know, they used to have one at Troy, one at Joel, one at Moscow and one at Palouse, Kennedy Ford, Princeton and for a time they had one at Harvard. And they would work together very well. And they'd have some arguments here and there but they'd say, "Will we support this or will we not support it?" And then they'd just hold kind of a- you've seen 'em on those little elections on points. And then whatever they decided, that's the way they'd go and the whole dang bunch'd push it. And they'd go from Grange to Grange and just push something through. They had a store in Moscow and Palouse and Garfield where you could buy just about anything that you wanted, and that was all owned by individual grain growers. And indivivual grangers- we each could put in 10 and they used that 10 to get a building and stock it '. as much as they could. They bought cooperatively gasolme-
SS: What was the first thing?
GLEN: Landplaster. Gypsum. And then they put in tools, machinery partsand things like gloves and overalls and things like that. I don't know they worked that, but the Latah County Grain Growers evidently taken that over. And the Grange is out of it.
SS: Well to the store, then they've got the GrangeCo-op and all. Is that one of the- those stores?
GLEN: That's one of 'em. All of these were organized about, oh, inthe '30's.
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GLEN: I really don't know. They must have organized that before even1900, but I really don't know.
SS: I know it's a long time ago.
GLEN: Perhaps they would be more active during hard times, but- Ijust don't know enough about it to tell you.
SS: Did your father- did he believe in the Grange much?
GLEN: To some extent, yes. But my granddad, oh, I think he belongedhewas in the Grange though and he thought that the Grange could do it and would do it and supported the Grange more than he would the Farmers Union. But, on the other hand, I think he'd support 'em both equally if they had it coming- in his estimation. He was Master of the Washington State Grange, oh, twenty-five or thirty years,I guess, I don't know. I don't know when he first went in, I know when he went out was in November, 1917. That's when he died.
SS: Was there a Grange Hall in the area where you lived back thatearly?
GLEN: Grange Hall?
GLEN: Damn right. (Chuckles) You bet. They used the schools and thechurches and the public halls like the Odd Fellows hall or some thing like that, but they almost always got around to building their own hall. Took some time, but that big one at Kennedy Ford is still in use and I believe it was built in 1906,/(I m not sure. What does it say on the end of that building? I think it's f06. Was the Grange as open to nonfarmers back then as it is today, or was it mostly farm families? I think it was. I think it was open to just about everyone. The merchants in Palouse, he was involved in farming almost as much as the man that was- Well, that came later.
Huh?That must have come later, because- It probably did, I don't know.
When my folks were on the coastYou know, I joined the Grange in 1914. I was supposed to be four teen years old but I was only thirteen, but they needed more mem bers and they needed 'em badly and they held a meeting and decided to take I and Carl Lancaster and Mau4e Canfield, and there wasn't any of us quite old enough, but they needed the more members and all of our belonged, so we just got elected to be members, almost a year before we were old enough. We did the same thing over on the Coast with me, put me in before I was fourteen or whatever it was supposed to be. They had to to get a quorum.
That's the reason they had it that way at ours, because-They had the members, but they wouldn't come.
Well, that's right, there's always something, seemed like, thatwould keep them from coming. And so, they did that. And it worked alright. And then, we kids never would open our heads, we didn't have any opinions to express or anything of the sort. And then on farther than that, our dues, membership, was just as good as somebody that was seventy-five years old. That's really the main object, was to get a little bit more financial stability.
You were junior grange members or full Grange members?No, there was no junior; that didn't come for a long time. They might have had it back East, but they didn't have it on the Coast.
No, nor here. No, that didn't come until in the 30's sometimeMy folks were very enthusiastic Grange members over there^. What you're saying that the attendance of meetings was a problem then like it is today.
Well, it was. ^Transportation was pretty good if you were youngenough, you didn't give a darn whether it was raining or blowing or snowing, you'd get on a saddle horse or get in a sled and go, but as got a little older, it was awful nice to stay home and let that Grange meeting worry about it's own problems, and not go out in the cold after you'd been out in it all day! But the younger people, they didn't care about whether it was storming or not. They couldn't get a saddle horse that night- couldn't get a team to take their girl, they didn't take her. Well, we walked.
Would you say that this was social mostly back then, or was itmore political, more decision- you know, making decisions?
Was it really just to socialize and get together or was it fortoorganize the farmers' interests?
Oh, the farmers' interests were really primary, and I think therehardly ever was a meeting that there didn't something come up in serious business; probably two or three ., but at the same time, they never drew the line on that social part. If you didn't have Grange this week, they'd arrange for their dance the next week or the^ice cream social or something. Well, over there on the Coast there wasn't any social business about it, it was strictly business if .We never danced or anything.
Would the dancing be after the meeting?Would be after the meeting, quite often. Quite often. Was the dancing at Grange any different as a get-together than dancing for a community dance? Just the same thing. Had the same music, the same people, no difference. Well, they could charge and other people came in on the regular dance.
Yeah. Saturday just as a dance, then they usedcharge the men as much as fifty cents, more than likeL it was only twenty-five cents. Gosh, it got to be way long in pretty good times- wartimes- when they got up to a dollar for a couple. The Grange was a big benefit socially and economically. In bus iness, it didn't hurt anything, never. What was the school program like? Was that at the schoolhouse and a fairly regular affair?
You mean other meetings in the school?Well, you said the school programs that you had. That would be evening get-togathers. Well, at first, Thanksgiving, Christmas or Easter or the last day of school. But the schoolhouse, that was generally the place until they got better, for everything. Hell, the first Grange meetings at Harvard were held in the schoolhouse for years. And church, and elections. The schoolhouse was the center of that neighborhood, and then they built the church, then they built a Grange Hall. Come slow, but it all came. But that old schoolhouse was busy day and night.(It's ringing all the time here) (telephone) We're even on the Smokehouse - same phone number as the Smoke house downtown, and we get their phone numbers- their phone calls. Calling for Richard Spencer all time] (Chuckles)
made a mistake, but it's sure a convenience. You can goover there and answer the phone and all they want's the beer par a little more serious matter.
There are^ have been, occasions out here when make a mistake likethat the telephone company had to correct it, right now! Regard less of what it cost 'em. That's really infringing on your rights when the phone rings for somebody else constantly. It isn't as bad here as it could have been.
Some of 'em can't get it through their head that they re gettingthe wrong number. Do they use the same number? Yes, it's in the- it's alright in the Troy book, but this is a book that was published someplace in Utah. Talking about the Unions.
You don't need to worry that secretary of the union'd be rightaround; they give you a certain number of days that you don't have to sign up and then he'll be around after his 5 bill. Is that such a bad thing? It isn't too bad. I used to get quite a lot of work with 'em. Used to sign up with 'em in the fall and generally was good for as long as I wanted to work. Weather got too damn bad I didn't want to work. But they'd lay us off day or two, then call us back, then lay us off and then call us back. Well, what do you expect? We're not members and the members of course, naturally just entitled to that first chance at a job as soon as anybody wanted it.
Say, how much were those pictures? Do you remember?Something that really has puzzled me for a long time that I'm trying to figure out and that is; there on the one hand it seems like the community, the neighborhood, not just where you lived was really strong. And it supported people, a lot of support, you know, help. And then on the other hand it seems like still a guy had to make it on his own. I mean, he had to pull hard to make it. And I'm not too sure where you'd draw the line, where you'd say that's as much help as you could get around here and where you had to pull out on your own. You know what I mean?
Yes. Well, there wan't any line there. People would cooperateas far as they were able for time and money and such, but there wasn't any line. Maybe they'd start to build somebody a house and four or five of 'em would go aways, four, five of 'em take over and go from there on and different ones'd drop back in and out, but they'd finish the job in some way. Roberts' house, they started that the day or two after the fire and George Nichols barn, he decided he had to have a barn and so they started it, it took a while but 'got it and Burgers' house and barn. Just went on all over the country. The place where Ashes live, there was a fellow by the name of Trottmeyer owned that and he was sick and they put that barn up from start to finish and it was a big barn; 52x60 I believe.
Everybody work on it at once there or was it a barnraising inthe old style?
Yes, that's right. And then they got it up to point wherethey didn't need all this crowd, why then, whatever was necessary would take over. Maybe one crew would work a few days and then they had to go home and another crew'd take over. His barn, did it burn down or was it just being built from scratch? It was from scratch. No Tottmeyer's barn didn't burn down, he didn't have a barn, but he had to have one and so they put it up for him. Shortly after that he died and they even finished it after he died. My dad was administrator of that estate and they sold it to Hamberg and by golly, they still went ahead after that and kind of made a neighborhood projectNof it, finished it up anyway.KThey claimed that Albert Bailey done that, supervised it. Then they had a barnraising and they all pitched in, went to the mill and got lumber for siding and another crew went to the woods and got shake timber and my God, they made the shakes and everything, when they raised the barn on . place. I fra med it. And I think I was seventeen years old; seventeen or eigh teen, the neighbors come in and set it up and Dad traded a calf to ^^ for lumber and I and one of the neighbors went and got that on two wagons. And then my brother and I went to the Hoodoos and got some cedar for shakes. And two or three days, there must have been a dozen neighbors around there making shakes and they figured they had enough ahead, and then four, five neighbors started in and put those shakes on the barn. And, you know, thtf^old barn's still standing over there; still in use. Put up there in 1917 or '18.
It sounds like, Glen, the kind of cooperation you're talking aboutis when somebody needed something, a big project, where it was really more than a person could spare time by just themselvesit would take a long time to do it by himself, and that's when the community moved in and helped.
That's the way it worked. They would take over and all work together, have a big old time while they're doing it. And they'd get acquainted with newcomers that way and they'd visit. They would take over. If somebody was sick, this'n would sit up with 'em all night tonight and somebody else sit up for tomorrow night and if necessary they did it time after time. They thought noth ing of it whatever, just the thing to do and they did it. When you put up your barn, did your folks, did your mother feed the people over there working?
No, if I went she'd go and take a potluck dinner, and they justmade kind of a picnic out of it. Then if there was only one or two or three, why, then the folks would feed 'em and think no thing of it. Just whatever the conditions called for, why, that's the way they done it.
SS: What about the other side of the coin? Say like when people werehaving hard- really pretty hard luck- hard times struggling to make it? Say like in the Depression or just when you had a lit tle, then you still wouldn't feel that- a person wouldn't just call on his neighbor for help, would he? Seems like when you had a rough time you just struggled through it pretty much by yourself.
GLEN: No, you didn't call on your neighbors for help. The neighborsknew you needed help and they volunteered it. No, you didnt call on 'em; you didn't have to. One or two cases where in harvest ih somebody would be hurt or sick, hell, we'd just all get together and1.crop and forget it. Let their own go. Go and take care of this one, get it out of the way so he would have his money to pay the bills, if there were any. But, no, they didn't ask for help, no, they didn't have to. there at Potlatch was crippled up with rheumatism and, gee, he had a big haying job probably about 100 ton and those farmers from all over the country^ they pulled in there and mowed it, raked it, shocked it, and hauled it in his barn and baled it. And Pete didn't- I don't think he IV45 a penny and I don't think that they had to furnish a meal. We'd go to the house because that's where the water was but, God, the women was all there and they had dinner ready for us and sup per if we wanted to stay. Herb and Louie Kegley and I, there was three of us in the crowd went over there, four or five miles away, took our horses, each had a team or^whatever was necessary and that big bunch of hay was taken care of in four or five days. One man couldn't have taken care of it in a month. And he never called for help. The old lady and the kids was out there trying to help him; neighbors seen it and just took over. Hodge was there; Fay was there, Hibberds were there, Kegleys, Wallaces, Pete Clyde, everybody was there. So darn many of 'em, they got in the way sometimes. But they did the job. And Pete never did get over that, he never did completely get over that, but he finally did get so he could work, do chores and things like that. They called it rheumatism, didn't they?
Yeah, it was rheumatism, but I don't know what type.Probably arthritis, we'd call it now. I know that he ended up a cripple for the rest of his life. About when did this happen? About '48 or '19.
When you were in danger of losing your place at Harvard in the'30's and you were really working hard to catch up with the Land Bank people, you couldn't really get much help, or you didn't try to get much help from the neighbors. No, although, they were awful good about coming in and help during harvest and I'd go over and help them during harvest. That was just an ordinary thing. You know, there wasn't any way they could help me. Wasn't very many of 'em had much themselves.
No they didn't, not as a rule. Having their own troubles. Thereain't no use trying to help me; I got myself into a helpless condition there. We knew before we went up -^ chance of not making it. If we hadda got a break and wheat had got up about 1 we'd a made it good, but to stay down under seventy-five cents a bushel why, just wouldn't. We just went up there on a gamble and we knew it. But, on the other hand, I had it whipped, had it wh ipped, but they decided I wasn't entitled to any more time. That's part of the story we talked about, about back in the '30's before, I mean, that's what made you wind up coming over here and it seems to me like that happened to a number of people. Oh, yeah, I wasn't alone on it. By no means!
No, the banks were desperate; they'd had their holiday butthey still had money out they couldn't collect it, and it was just conditions. They had it in 1893 and they had it again in '97; they had it again in 1922 and then they got it again in 1930 and it lasted till 1940. That was a long time. That was rough. Do you think it would have made a big difference if you hadn't a grown wheat? If you'd done something else with the money? At that time?
That's right! And ^had done it. They said you couldn't saisealfalfa in that area and I had an idea that you could. So I put in a crop of peas, there was twenty-seven acres on that field, and I innoculated it and then I landplastered it and the next year went out there and landplastered and I disced it twice and har rowed it down and put in that alfalfa, and at the first of June when it should have been a foot high it was only about two inches high. I don't know what got into it or what held it back, but anyway, it started to grow and I got off that twenty-seven acres I filled that barn, 52x60, and I'll bet you that it had 100 ton in it. Best alfalfa I ever seen. It was just simply a matter ofand that is the answer to your question. I had done it. I had alfalfa and I had the cattle to eat it and sheep. If they'd left me alone I had it whipped. I had a nice bunch of sheep, about 100 ewes and I had about twenty head of pretty good yearling and three year old heifers to eat that hay and I was on my way. But I was back payments and back interest and I did manage to keep the taxes up. Sometimes I was late with them, but I kept 'em up. That was just something that happened and I don't think it hurt us. We'd been well fixed by now if we coulda stayed there. We come over here. We had to struggle a little harder, we had to sell this stuff because we didn't have hay land here, we had to sell the stock in order to get in here, so it put us right down to bedrock again then we just hung tough and struggled along and finally we're alright. We don't need for anything. So, it's alright, wasn't hurt. Probably a good lesson, I don't know. (Chuckles) But I know I didn't have the incentive to strike out and get bigger and get rich. I was afraid to stick my neck out for a 500 investment. I was scared to do it on account of the experience we'd had over there. So we just struggled along a dollar at a time. There was never a dull moment. (Chuckles) Not any single moment. It was a hard battle and interesting battle and the tougher it'd get, the harder I'd fight, I think the more I enjoyed it.
SS: It sounds like there was a purpose in it, because being hardmade it all the more challenging.
GLEN: Well, it sure as hell wasn't easy, but it worked out. Give aperson back in those days . had the guts and the money or any way to get ahold of a big piece of land when they almost give it to you, why ' should adone it, but who knows, that the was gonna come, as it is now. I didn't.
SS: When you first- when you say 500 bucks, what kind of investmentare you talking about, that would have taken 500 bucks?
GLEN: I coulda bought the 160 that lays right there, that the lake ison for 500. And Joe Mc Collum walked out here^ two or three times and said, "Glen, you don't have to have any money to take that," he says, "you just take that and pay the taxes,"which were about 15 a year, "and pay me when you get the money." But it was still a debt of 500, and my debts had to have always been paid in some way and I was afraid to stick my neck out. I had little kids. I figured I could protect them here; if I did that, maybe I couldn't. And, there was opportunities like that scattered clear around me. These places were all for sale. They were busted, they were discouraged. Some of 'em hung on, some of 'em didn't. But that's a matter of foresight and hindsight.
SS: Yes, I think that those kinds of things- everybody has in theirpast, (outside noises)
When you got into that place at Harvard, you to lay 500down on it?
SS: Then what was your mortgage?
GLEN: 2,500 left. There was 280 acres, I think. There was a lot offarm ground on it. But not any timber- merchantable timber- lots of brushland left. There were 125 acres cleared and the balance was brush. Pasture. But, it was a^good prospect if we coulda iust got another two bits a bushel for wheat, but we couldn t get it.
SS: Were there very many other people that were running sheep in thearea at the time?
Oh, there was quite a few little ten and fifteen head bands,yes, but there weren't any bands around me anywhere. There was too, Bob Thompson had 100. Well, there were one or two bands around of 100 or better. Most people didn't like sheep, most of 'em didn't. I figured that made it good for the sheepherder. Kept up competition, left you more room to pasture and left you this and that. But I was lucky on those sheep, I bought some for 1.50 a head and I had about a lamb and a half to sell the next fall from each ewe, and I got- I think I got about 5 a lamb or was that a little heavy? I think, I got around six cents a pound, somewheres close, and sold the damn ewes for 3.50 after selling the lamb crop. Sheep always did treat me that way. Easiest money a man could make.
SS: Did you run 'em outside of your place? Back in the countrysidetnere?
Oh, yeah, yeah. Lee Butcher came up and said to me that if Iwould tend camp for him that he would take these sheep of mine and put 'em with his, he had 500 and I had 100 ewes or a little better, and we took 'em to the range and we started 'em up Ruby Creek and fed that all out and then we crossed over into the head of Bear Creek and come in there behind Dwight Corey's and finished up there at Dwight Corey's in the fall. And what I did, I'd take him his groceries and his mail and salt and everything he needed and move his camp twice a week. He did the herding, and it worked very good for both of us. We had a little bear trouble, we lost a few lambs, but not too many, between us, pro bably fifteen or twenty. Bear get into 'em, but we got about half as many bears as they got - the bears got lambs. We trapped 'em. And get the dogs started on 'em. I had a bunch of pretty good dogs, they'd chase 'em and tree 'em and we'd get 'em that way. Had some fun; some excitement, and a scare or two.
Yeah. Yeah, one time there was a great big old yellow pine treesnag laying up a steep hillside and there was a bear that we were after stepped up on the top of that and stood there broad- side and shot him and he kicked, he went on this side, he went on this side, he went on this side and he come right at us. We were standing there at the stump. Lee said, "We probably bet ter get get the hell outta here." We took off and pretty soon that bear kicked clear down into the creek deader'n a doornail. That reaction after- after he was shot it was just funny, he just crossed back and forth over that log and acted just like he was alive, but he was coming right towards us. So, we got outta there. That sounds like a pretty good- It looked that way to us, yes.
In the arrangement you had with this guy, he did the herding andyou the supplying, that sounds like a good deal. It was. It was a good deal for both of us, because he didn't have horses or equipment to get his stuff and further than that he couldn't leave the sheep long enough to go and get it. Didn't take me very long.a couple of times a week to go and supply him and move his camp and set him up. I made him kinda peeved one day, I didn't get into camp to move him quick enough, he thought it wasn't quick enough. It was almost dark, or it was dark by the time I got through and he had packed everything, but he got his supper and then he figured it was too late that I wouldn't be there. I know he had a can of tomatoes and he only ate half of 'em, so he had 'em in a dish in this box and he had a lot of stuff that shouldn't a been packed, wouldn't have ordinarily, but I put that on that horse, a box on each side and led him over quite a steep hill and down into another draw; unpacked it and about the time I got the tent set up and his bedroll packed into the tent and stove set up, why, here come Lee and he was kinda peeved, little more than peeved; madder.'n hell. Says, "You moved that stuff and I didn't figure on you comin'," he says, "I didn't get ready move," he says, "tomatoes in there and a jar of sourdough and there's no lid on it." And, he says, "That box of stuff is- I'll bet you that everything in it's ruined." Well, I felt pretty bad. He took the lid off, took the tomatoes out, and I don't think they spilled a dropJ And he went on down and the sourdough I don't think it spilled a drop. He was happy and I felt better. But I did carry the mail to him earlier after that.
Don't know what held me up that day, but something. Somethingheld me back. Was he a bachelor? Yeah. Well, no, let's see- no, his wife lived in Lewiston and he owned a place in Lewiston but they none of 'em ever come up there. He was just a starting, he wasn't out of the woods yet. Did he have grazing rights in the area there? Yeah. He had the whole Ruby Creek, Flat Creek, Bear Creek. We had grazing rights on 4,000 acres there i expect. So you got grazing rights just by going in with him then? Yeah.
Did you keep the partnership up very long?
No, just the one year. He- I had to sell out- I had to get outbecause we were coming here. So I sold the sheep. I sold every one of 'em. You kept some.
No, of that bunch I think I sold every one of 'em, didn't I?You kept that big old long that high and long hair on her about so.
Didn't I go- Yes, I musta kept them ewes that I got at WSC. Igot thirteen head of ewes from WSC and I guess we kept them. But I sold everything else.
You know, it seemed to me like your roots in a way are over onthe other side of the mountain more than here. I've had the feeling that your oldest friends are over there and those are people you grew up with as compare d to people over here, where you're more of a newcomer. I kind of wondered how the difference was between the neighborhood over there and the neighborhood over here. It seemed like that's a little more solid, old-time neighborhood than what you came to when you moved over here. It was overall, but down here on Allen's place Pelfrey was a newcomer. Up here on Boughten's place, Boughtens were newcomers. And over on Davises- the next place over- no the second place over, was another newcomer. And we just worked right together, because we were newcomers. There was some of the older people accepted us, Stostems and Osmond and Mc Leans over here. But as a rule it's pretty hard to break into them- it was hard to get acquainted with 'em, but on account of having all these new comers made it a lot easier. We exchanged work, we exchanged visits, we helped one another just like friends would. Some times we ' together, sometimes harvested together or butchered or things like that. And just got by pretty good. But I'm sure glad they were there because the old-time neighborhood people didn't care whether they accepted us or not, they were kind of hard to break into.
Not all of 'em.Not all of 'em, but as a rule that was true. One new business man in Troy said, "it took me five years to get these people in this neighborhood to even trade with me. All of 'em." He says, "There would always be a few," but he says, "it took five years to get started, acquainted, or whatever you call it." Was he Swedish or Norwegian? Was he Scandinavian?
Yeah, he was. He was Swedish, but the neighborhood he was astranger and they had their habits. They traded in the store where they'd been trading there for fifty years and they wouldn't change. He was new. And the same thing kind of applied to us. I don't understand it, but it's hard to break in to one group and on the other hand, they elected me on the school board the first year I was here. The neighborhood was trying. And, oh, we got by. We learned to like these people and they finally learned to like us, but they weren't real anxious to cross that barrier be tween ' stranger and somebody they knew. But they finally did.
Which school district was the one here?
This district here, although there was a school right down herewe belonged to this district that's over here at Big Meadow.
Where was the school?
The school was over at Big Meadow where the church is. Thatchurch is the old original schoolhouse. Big Meadow, now where are we talking about exactly? Which church is that?
It's on Walt Littler's place. I think you've seen that AdventChurch over there.
Well, that's it. That's where the school was. But these kidsnever had to go over there. They had consolidated and our kids - a bus right here in front of the house.
How did it come that there was a school?
There was a school some other place. It wasn't there. Theybrought that over when they bought that church. They brought that church over there from some place up here on the hill. I don't know for sure where, - Which board were you on then?
Big Meadow over there. Why was that?Oh, they wanted something done- put you on the board, you mean? Yeah.
They wanted something done and they were afraid somebody elsewouldn't do it. (Chuckles) I don't know, but they were consolidated and yet they had their individual school board out here and we had to go to town to school board meetings that were represented from White Pine over here, Big Meadow and down here at Nelson's and the school board meeting at that time would involve twenty-five, thirty people. And arguments! Oh, boy!
Still having them.What was the argument over then? Oh,-salaries, insurance, bus drivers, repair on the school buil dings in Troy. Some people'd go right along with it and other people said, "Let 'em fix their own damn school!" But, we finally wound up going in and helping 'em; donatlag labor to finish those buildings up. And, finally, they just eliminated all these out here and a three-man school board, same as- instead of having a dozen schools around the country represented in there, just had a three-man school board, and that took two, three years to get that.
You know, when you talk about hard to break into this community;when we've talked about what it was like for newcomers around Harvard, you said that it was easy for them that they were pretty well accepted.
So there was a difference between there and here?There was every nationality under the sun over there, but there were no Japanese up there. And when we firt went in there and until we left even, there was a constant change in the population for different reasons and when we came over here, these people were all born here, and there hadn't been any newcomers come into the area until about the time we started- we came. At the last of that depression these people around here were, oh, they wanted to get out of here and go someplace else.
The war started soon after we came here and anybody that couldget away went to the Coast to the shipyards and war effort, what ever it happened to be.
Pulled out. Wanted to get out. They could get out and make bigmoney working, but it was almost impossible to make a living at farming. You could make enough to eat and that waa about all. But, conditions changed with the war andAa few of us worked and done our farm work and still went out and got a job sawmilling or logging or going to Moscow on construction or anything. I can remember when my brother was working in the shipyards in Bremerton and made a dollar an hour. Boy, I thought that was magnificent to what we had been making. It for a while until prices started going up.
When you worked for like Steelsmiths- what kind of pay did youget for that kind of work? Oh, by that time the war was going great guns, I got 17 a day down there.
Where you talking about? Down at the mill?No, was out at iteelsmith. Oh, really? Just working for them?
When I went up to the mill, then I got an hour, didn't I?Yeah, I think so. What were you doing for Steelsmiths?
Oh, sewing sacks, on the combine. Yeah, that was big money. AndI worked for Bert Walner down there after Steelsmiths were done- I was getting 17 a day, but then that was wartimes. Did you do the same thing for Walner, sack sewing? Um-huh. Sewed sacks. Had you done that before?
Oh, you betl Lots of 'em. When I was just a young kid I used todo that, go out with those stationaries and sew sacks for thirtyGLEN five, forty days at a time. They were not new to me, the combine was. That was my first experience on a combine, but it didn't make any difference. Sewing a sack was the same, you sat and sewed it on that moving machine it bothered for a couple of hours and then after that you didn't pay any attention to it. You mean it took a while to get used to the position? The jiggle.
That was a pretty skilled job on those crews, wasn't it?Oh- Pretty tough job to get.
Semiskilled. Any farmer pretty near could do it. But the farmer had to take care of his own business. He couldn't go and help somebody else. The days of changing labor were out. Help was too damn scarce. The guy ahead of me out there at Steelsmiths didn't know how to sew sacks, and if he got behind he just throw the sack off the side, didn't sew it, dump it off!(Chuckles) He dumped off about four or five and Frank says, "No more of that." He just shut the machine down and sent Kelly to town to get a man andshe happened to run into me and I went out there and I worked for him several years and got along just fine. But finally one day the combine wheel dropped into a sharp ditch just as I pulled^150 pound sack of peas up over my knee and it tore the mus cle loose in my back some way, and from the 17th of August till the 1st of March I didn't dp ^a thin. I was in terrible pain. Took a long time to get over that. But they were insured and had enough to eat, that's about all we needed.
Were you working in the mills at the same time? Back then? Thatwas later.
No. I had worked in mills, yeah, all my life-For Potlatch.
I had worked in mills all my life off an on but during that timeI had enough here to almost keep me busy and almost do the job and then I'd get my harvest done here earlier, why, I'd go out and hire out to somebody else for a few day that were remaining. Was this place pretty much ready to work and farm when you got here, or did you wind up having a lot to do to be able to operate? This place had 25 acres cleared on it. No fences, no buildings, excepting that little house out there. I don't know how we did it but we did it. And now there's 125 acres on it and somebody else is farming it. And all but twenty-two acres of that were cleared up with the horses. Cleared up and and broke and farmed with horses. Walt cleared up twenty-two acres, one strip up there and one over on the other side of the place. Then we got our own cat and cleared up some more up there,, come later. But right nowAthere's 125 acres of it in crops. When you cleared with the horses was it much the way that your father cleared his place, or was there must difference? Yeah. Just the same, no change there. The change come when we got bulldozers and cats and big plows. Horse days- as long as there was horses, it couldn't change, just one way to do it. Stumppuller?
Oh, we had a stumppuller over there but I never here, no. Powder,crack 'em with some powder, pull 'em with block and lines. Block and tackle you'd call it probably. Cable..Then we didn't take all the stumps out the first time around, not by any means. Vie went around 'em, over 'em. We left 'em there to break our riggin' up in the future years, and it sure as hell did it! We do the best we could, get by with it. If you could clear up two acres a year, you were doing awful good. And they come in with a bulldozer in later years and clean up two acres in an hour.
An hour?Yeah. Really? Yeah. Well, it wasn't always done neatly. Well- we had-
Had a lot of work to level it off and get it ready to-Well, we had chopped the big timber down and cut it into wood and pastured sheep on it till they kill all the brush. And that final shot that Walt made here, the twenty-two acres, heck, he done that in about ten hours with a dozer; small dozer at that. Well, didn't Hunts do some, too? did Littler come in here?
In the '50's.About '55 or '56, So when you started you were only raising crop on about twentyfive acres? That's right.
And enlarging that every year by a couple of acres.Right. Yeah, you couldn't work at enlarging your place steady, you had to take a day here and an hour there and then two days someplace else. You had to make a living, whether you made it making cedar poles or whether you made it cutting wood or working for a sawmill or some other farmer, any way you could make a dollar. And then work at that clearing up little bit; just spare time.
went back here to look at the place, you know, lookit over, I think we went in about that deep of dust. A foot deep, huh?
Just about. Had a big wind over there someplace- come to thinkof it, we did have a lot of wind blowing dust. See, the next three years- Well, when this land came out of the timber it was fluffy, loose, red colored and you had to farm it three or four years before it settled down to be what it is now. It was chuck full of tree roots and grass roots and they used to call it tamarack soil. It was different than anything we'd ever seen, but it produced pretty good crops. Right away or after it had been settled down? Yes it did, it didn't do too bad especially if you put it in hay, which we did. Grass, clover, alfalfa. Anything to get hay. I didn't like wheat, never liked wheat and I never will. I didn't like it.
One reason why we objected to wheat over there at Harvard; twotimes at least it froze out. Well, one time it froze and one time we got that stripe rust. I had a crop there that looked like it was going to make fifty bu shel and the frost hit it in July when it was right in bloom and it made fifteen bushel of damn poor hog feed! And another yearit was the next year, the following year-had about forty or fortyfive acres of pretty good looking fall wheat and that stripe rustno, that was spring wheat- the stripe rust hit it. And it made about fifteen bushels of hog feed. Not good hog feed either. Didn't get any kind of a price on it at all. But we'd get some pretty fair crops on part of it.
SS: So you went for raising hay and keeping your own stock here fromthe beginning?
GLEN: That's right, we didn't want any wheat. We just put wheat enoughon it to condition the ground and get it so it would raise a crop of hay. Get it level enough so that thought could mow it. But I never left it grain over a year then I'd put it in hay. Hay was what I wanted. It's always been my crop, I don't know, I had good luck with it. And the stock was better for me than grain. They were good to me. Always made a little bit of headway. We never did have a bum crop on this place by frost or rust or parasites or anything of the sort. We were just lucky here, we never had a thing to hurt us that way. Always had a good crop of hay and fairly good crop of grain. About 1948 it rained and rained and rained, we had the wheat bound and shocked and it just kept a raining. Every day I'd go out and look at it and that wheat was just on top of those shocks was just as green as could be. Beautiful. Every kernel on top was sprouted! And the wheat got up that high on top of the shocks. Fortunately, I had it insured and this Harry Botser come out from Moscow and appraised it and give me about 75 loss on it. And as he was leaving I said, "Henry what'11 I do with that stuff?" He said, "Do whatever you want to. It's yours. You can burn it. You can plow it under." And he suggested things that I could do with it! But he didn't say anything about hauling it in the barn and feeding it, and I didn't either. So, I'd bring in a load and I'd spread it all over the barn, it was wet and green. And then the next day I'd get another load and bring it in. And you know, those pigs and chickens and cows had more fun threshing that crop than I ever had running it through a sfcjftarator! And it made me a little money! (Chuckles) I don't know whether I was supposed to do that or not, but I did it. Then the neighbor down here, he didn't have any stock, when they got through with mine, he says, "Do you want some more?" And I said, "Sure." So I hauled his wheat crop up here and put it away. Had to stack most of that outside, but they ate it and they loved it and they got fat on it, although it was absolutely worthless. You couldn't sell it. Just was worthless to anybody else. I went to Lewiston and bought just a few more sheep and I think I bought an extra pig or two and didn'-t have money enough to do me any good, but I got a few and they sure had a time around here.
The extra stock that you bought ate it?Yeah. When you were first over here, you know, it seems like with that little house, sometimes when you^had company some had to stand against the door to hold it shut] (Chuckles) Well, it sure used to get full, but we made it. Boy, look at the picture of all the kids, in that one picture. You had a big family.
Yeah.Course we- Well, we built onto it. The oldest girl was married when the last one came. Yeah, we built onto- two rooms. One whole room and boarded up a porch. Well, they didn't use 'em both at the same time, when the other was ready to fill, they moved off the porch.
Art described it pretty good, he says we were a little bit crowdedbut he says we made do. He had the same situation.
Art?Sundberg. Yeah that must have been a crowded situation with the older houses, having a big family.
These homesteaders out here on the prairie all had the same situation.
Well, some of 'em had big houses to start with.
To start with? No, very few of 'em. They got 'em pretty suddenly but they had to get a crop or two before they had the money to do it.
That house was standing when you came here?
Yeah, there were three rooms and the back porch and I guess theback porch was boarded in but there had to be some work done be- cause it was^0collid. We put on felt paper. Well, as they got bigger and couldn't sleep three in a bed, why, we'd finally struggle around and get another room added on so they could have at least two in a bed; at the most two in a bed, however it works.
What did you do about a house when you were first there for space?Did you have one room to yourselves?
Yeah. There was a very small bedroom- well, there were two bedrooms, one the girls and the boys weren't as big. You see, the two oldest girls- were the oldest and Lloyd and Richard wereand flllen. So they were small enough to-
Oh, yes, they crowded, but we made do. We got that porch fixedup for 'em pretty early and it made a nice room for the boys. The girls had one. And then we built a back on, and then the boys had lots of room, and a nice situation out of that. Then we started this. That's another beauty of being ignorant- if I had a known what it was going to take in work and hours and dollars I never woulda started this house- wouldn't had the nerve.(Chuckles) Well, the other one was just kinda on the way down. There wasn't any foundation under it and it was just kind of a patch-up deal.
Course, I suppose he could have put a foundation under it but-You wouldn't a had anything when you got done. That house was built there in the '70's, original part of it.
It was put up without any studs between the walls, just, I don'tknow how they did it. Box.
The top and bottom must have been nailed.
Well, in these pamphlets from Whitney County, there were lots ofthose old cabins built that way. They'd make a foundation, or a start and put a 2x4 at the bottom and a 2x4 at the top and then they'd nail these 1x12 boards just like that up. And there'J be a two inch airspace in there so they battened the outside with 1x4s and then they put in their inn^Hf wall and put wallpaper over (f and then the lumber'd shrink and the wallpaper'd crack and the wind'd blow through and the snow'd blow through and they'd patch that up and paper it again. I don t know which one it was that was telling about papering it the first time with newspapers. Then they got prosperous and got a roll or two of felt paper and they papered it with that. Then they got some fancy wallpaper and papered it with that. That's three layers. And every year they'd paper it again and clean the walls up till they had about fifteen or twenty layers of paper on there and it began to get pretty warm!
What about your family's place when you grew up?
We did about the same thing over at Harvard. But here- Oh, we'donly papered that over there about three or four times, I guess. Probably not that many.
It was comfortable. It was pretty good. Pretty good.
The first time we tried to paper- it was pretty good paper onthere when we came and then it and torn a little here and there and somebody gave us some paper and it wasn't very good paper. First thing, we started out bright and shining one morning and he got it all glued and everything ready to put up, put it over his head and his head went right through it! (Laughter) I started to |ugh and I couldn't stop laughing. But after that it seemed to go pretty good. It's a wonder he didn't kill me! I guess he saw how funny it was himself. (More laughter)
The kids nowdays, it seems like that each kid or person requiresis so much more than it was- not that long ago. I can't imagine two kids in bed; two or three beds in a bedroom.
Yeah, nowdays,Aeach supposed to have a bed of their own in a bedroom.
Yup. Well, we finally got it. Let's see, it had to get down tograndkidsAbefore we got it that way! Oh, well, it was not too bad; two of 'em in a bed, they were comfortable and if they didn't start out any other way, why, they liked it alright. What did you envision when you started to think about building this house? If not the house in its present form, what were you thinking of? I mean, it's a beautiful house and I always^ imagined that from the beginning you were going to build it up like this.
Well, we had wanted- up there at Harvard, if we had built, we wasgoing to build a log house, I think. Yeah.
We wanted it, anyway. We thought when we started this house thatit was going to be so big, so much bigger than the other one, Well, it is, it's about twice as big or more, but still when any of the kids come home, why, we're- we kind of divide 'em up with the rest of the family to make room for them because I guess you get another family in here or two, well, it's going to fill it up okay, and it does. So when the bunch came home for the reunion, why, we didn't think of anything else, we just let 'em go to Edgar's and well, I guess, that was all. Whenever we had room- there was two up, , three up and two up there and two here; oh, they got i-^Tnaybe it was a little crowded, but they made do.
Were you thinking the house- about this scale, about the way itturned out when you started building?
Oh, never woulda had any idea it would take so much room to holda family^ ^second generationin there- third. But, we had this plan, we planned it for years even to where the windows and doors were going to be. When we started in on it we had a pretty good idea what it was going to end up. But it took quite a while about ten years, but Ididn't see where there was any rush. Every body says, "Why don't you get a loan? And get a contractor?" Heck Idon't want a loan because you gotta pay them back. Sooner have my own work in it. Maybe take a little longer but it was mine.
What year did you start building?
We started this in r50, didn't we?
Yes. Cutting the logs.
Is that the way you proceeded, you started by -
Well, first we cut the logs and got them all ready and then agyppo mill come in up :here on the next place and I give him a share of the logs to mill them and he took his share and as much of mine as he could get, but it wasn't too bad, I kept getgrr ting a little gain on it all the time. I'd put a log on the car- riage and think, "Well, that's a good cabin log." And the first thing I knew he had it sawed up into inch lumber, so I had to go to Lewiston. But we kept at it and finally got enough. And I had a big load of selects pulled out like those over there with no knots, no strings, no nothin'. I went to Moscow for something well, when I come back that was gone and I had to start almost all over again, but the next time I held onto thflffselect stuff, when I got it I brought it home. And finally got through. This guy's what we call rip off.
Yeah, well, - dammit he had to eat, he had a big family, he hadto eat. I don't blame him. And they were big kids, they were grade school and high school.
What you were doing, you were getting your logs sawed in halfand getting- try to get the best paneling you can? I wanted my fair share of the better grade, yes, I thought I was entitled to that. And I wound up with- I'm satisfied. Well, these exterior- the logs; are they cut in half or are they whole logs?
Oh, these logs?
They're squared on three sides. And made eight inch square withthe round side to go out. And then we didn't have to -. any corners, we just cribbed it. . Like that. And another log went in here and then another log went over the top and caught this cor ner again. Made a substantial corner. And then we put, oh a wall like this one- there'd be about five sixty penny spikes. We bored a hole half way through the log and drove that nail in there til the head hit the hole we'd bored and that put it half way through the next log. They were eight inch nails and they went four inches in each log. And it don't seem to be giving any place, it's in there. Be a long time if nothin' happens to it. So, how did the work progress? S? first year you got the logs cut.
Yes, and then the next year we got 'em sawed, and then during thatsummer the kids dug the basement with a team of horses. They had a time of it but they did her. I was working at the mill then up at Moscow. And we put up the- on Saturdays and Sundays or any time we could get, we put up these walls, and got them up where they were gonna be and then, I don't know, we got that roof up there some way next and closed ., but we had the roof on it and then that made it so we could work- when the mill shut down, then we could work all winter in here, and we did. And all that lumber was piled here in the middle of the floor. There was no division there. And we had a stove here to try and get it dry, and we thought we had it dry, but that would shrink, not too bad, but it shrunk. And I always thought that I'd like to take it down and put it tight, but I never will.
You did, this part here.But, it took ten years, so what? From start to finish. It was ten years before you moved in? No, no, we- We moved in in '56.
It was '60 before we moved in.So what remained to be done at that point, when you moved in? Oh, these walls needed to be finished. The bedrooms needed to lined be and cabinets built and fireplace built. And we didn't get the fireplace built until '62. But, we just kept a peckin'. I got money enough to get the wire and I asked a contractor to come in and put that wire up while the building was^ pretty much of a skeleton, and he wanted to contract to do the whole thing, furnish the wire and put it in, but I couldn't do it. These walls weren't done, they couldn't put their lamps in and I don't know, the ceiling was floored up there, but it wasn't floored underneath. The ceiling wasn't there. But, anyway, he didn't want any part of it because I wouldn't contract to do the whole thing, so he just passed it up. And then I didn't know anything about electricity, but I asked everybody I could see what to do about the wiring, and they all advised(me) to get the heaviest wire you could possibly get for that purpose and I did. And be fore this wall went up I put the wire in there. Comes in over here and under the basement and comes up the wall and into there and over here. Oh, got by with it. But he wanted me to borrow the money, give him contract and go ahead. I couldn't see it He couldn't see it; he couldn't see it my way, I couldn't see it his. Just as well, we got by.
Had you ever built a house before this one?
Oh, not alone. I'si helped Nance on his. I helped Dean High onhis, I helped Burgers on theirs. Even as a kid I used to get in on those house raisings and things like that. Oh, yeah, I had a little, enough to know what to do, how to do it, but I wouldn't be as fast as an expert or a carpenter. But I had a pretty fair idea. The biggest help I got, when I going to Prep high school.I took a couple or three semesters in cabinet making. Where it was just woodwork. But I learned how to use the tools and what they were made for and why they were made and so on, and that give me an idea that I could do it.
Well, the old instructor down there, C. Roberts- said, "ifyou can built a perfect box, four sides of it, and make it per fect," he says, "you can build anything there is out of wood." I didn't quite get that box perfect, but I got it by enough to get a grade. And then took the knowledge to work in here. What prep school was this? Where was it?
Pullman. That college used to have what they called^ prep schoolthere for places that didn't have high school, we could go in there and take high school courses, and get about anything you wanted to, basics. It was high school, that's all it amounted to. The only thing is that high school never was as hard as that.
No, they crowded us.I took high school about the same time he took and we didn't have the assignments nor the kinds of books that they had in as freshmen there, or anytime during high school.
They crowded us harder. We was supposed to get what's ordinaryhigh school in four years, but we had to get that in three. They didn't give us four years. So assignments were pretty big and the load was heavy and believe me, they pushed us. Was that good or bad to have to work like that? A kid with ordinary intelligence, it was probably good, but I was so goddam dumb it was all I could do to get by. Well, I don't think that because, as I say, I took high school about the same time you did that and I've seen your books and we never had anything like it in high school. And the courses then were probably a lot harder then than they are now, so there's no comparison.
I know they pushed us.Did you live at Pullman? Yeah.
When you were going? Where did you live?I don't know - If the Conservatory of Music is where it used to be or not, but we lived just across the street from it down over a bank.
Student housing? Did you live with other students?There was four of us bached. In a regular house.
In a little one-room shack. It was about 14 or 16 feet wide andabout 20 feet long; kitchen in one end, dinind area in the middle and beds were double bunks in the back. We did our own cooking. And I worked all the time, let's see, pretty near four hours a day. And set up half the night- Studying, I hope.
END OF SIDE E
Oh, well, I got by.
Where did you work?
Where did you work?
Oh, I milked cows out at the dairy and one year I was the barnboss out there. Used to have oh, about twenty-five, thrity head of horses and I took care of those horses night and morning. Had to get over there about three o'clock in the morning and feed 'em and curry 'em and harness what they were going to use that day. And then somebody else come along and cleaned the barn out. I didn't have to do that but it took all the time I had, then I had to go back over in the evening and unharness 'em, curry 'em, feed 'em and water 'em and take care of 'em. I loved it, that part of it.
I think I would have stayed over there.
Over in Pullman?
No, in the horse barn! (Chuckles)
Sounds better than the one-room shack?
Well ,at least he woulda had more time to study.
We worked at that studying pretty conscientiously. We knew thatit was just up to us, there was no foolin'. We might go to a dance once a week, very rarely ever went to a show unless it was something up on the campus there. We used to go to the occasional ball games, not too many. There just wasn't time for it. We did try to get to a dance about once a week. All of us liked to dance, And there was always girls around there that were glad to get a date.
But to go to Pullman in the first place, to go to high school,that in itself sounds to me like
Small number went on to do that.
There was quite a large bunch of these boys- Now, see, at thattime, Spangle didn't have a high school, and there was Boyd Lambert and Dolly and two^ three others from Spangle. So the dis trict up there paid the tuition. We didn't have to pay any tuition.KHad to buy our books and our board and room and clothes; that was about it. But, you know, with the few hours that I worked every day, and that was seven days a week, I could make and save during the summer about 300, 400 and one year 500. And a lot of that w earned at a dollar a day. In harvest I could get three. But^I could make- I think I got about fifty cents an hour over there so I made about two dollars a day. Financially, got by fine. Good. Nothin' to it. But, I never was any great deal ahead in my studies.
They shouldn't have charged you one cent for books.Well, they did, though.
Washington paid all the books, paper, pencils at that time.Where was your family living at the time?
Oh, Harvard. No school- just grade school there. There was ahigh school in Potlatch, but we wanted to go down here. Why? Did you figure it was better? Better school?
Well, yes, we thought that.AWouldn't have had a chance to work, probably. No. They had more to chose from. I was agriculture; I wanted ani mal husbandry and things like that, and I couldn't get it unless I went there. That was my main influence, that I could get a broader choice of things. However, they crowded us with algebra, and all and history and geometry, , English and history they made us take that when you get one or two classes in each semester of something like botany or horticul ture.
But got that in high school.
I know, but, animal hus- I always got a semester of that inthere. Every semester.
Was it your decision to go, Glen, or did - or was it your parents' decision?
It was mine, strictly mine, as far as I was concerned. And thenthe neighbor kids, it was their's too. Their parents encouraged it. But the one of them wanted to take- to be a teacher, antoher one wanted to study more or less languages, Spanish and things like that and you couldn't specialize in the high school, but all of us did alright after we got out of there, we went in- t if to our line of work and did tright Well, I think if he'd taken high school at Potlatch you probably would have had the same thing except you wouldn't had a chance to work. Well, I couldn't have got animal husbandry or feed and seeds or crops and seeds. Well, I know, but- But, yeah, that's right. But it was about six of one, half a dozen of the other. I think we'd been just as well off either place.
Those days,Harvard, or two miles beyond Harvard, and Potlatchwere a long way apart. There wasn't any cars. I guess there were cars, but who had 'em? Very few cars then.
And it's too far for a horse to make the trip every day.Yeah. Oh,
His sisters stayed in town and worked their heads off.Where? At Potlatch. Worked on Nob Hill or where? No. They worked on the other hill. But they worked.
Yes. Yes, they worked, darn right they worked!What did they do?
Housework. Take care of the kids. The old heifers, they'd leavethe dinner dishes and the floor sweeping and everything else for those kids to do after they got home from school. They took a hell of an advantage of 'em.
Sounds like Anna Utt talking about- she did the same thing.Yes, she did.
My sister did the same thing in Seattle. Carol did the same thingat Moscow when she went to the university, .Jt was Just a common thing. Sluff onto to those-
Those women wouldn't do a hand's turn that they could possiblyleave for those kids to do after they got home. It's always been that way and always will be, I guess. Now, it's TV to look at sit and look at.
To put up with it the kids must have wanted to a certain amountof education.
Well, they did. They did, figured they benefitted enough to makeit worthwhile to do it. But, I'd do it again if I was to do it over again, I'd still do it the same way, but I wouldn't try to go through in three years. I would make them lower that load so that if I wanted to" take five years. You could do it now but you couldn't do it then. They just piled it onto you, you had so many hours when you registered and that was it. So it was really a struggle, a struggle to keep up with all that stuff?
I just had a awful time. Just a continual round of pleasure!!(Chuckles)
Now, you probably read more history than anybody I know, so itdidn't destroy your love of learning. No.
I think a person the more you study or read9 the more they wantto. Most of the people that I've known can't get enough degrees. I know one woman you see over here, Church, has studied and gone to school for imagine fifteen years at least, maybe more. If I had kept at it, I would have been a lot more apt to Camp 11
Your exposure to that. You once described what thatwas like. Would you describe that to me again? Camp 11 was like when you saw it.
Well, the living conditions?
Yes. When they were pretty bad.
Well, the bunkhouse was 30x- I imagine 75 feet- and there was arow of double bunks there on the wall, and each bunk, one above the other, and they put about, oh, must have been 75 men in that one great big room. Had a stove in each end. And we'd all come in sopping wet night after night after night. Well, the only place you could get those clothes dry was to hang 'em up the ceiling; with seventy-five coats, seventy-five pair of socks, seventy-five suits of underwear and seventy-five suits of overalls or pants, and there is people,that d swear that d stink! AThey'd get it cleaned up maybe once every two or three years and then somebody'd come in with a batch of lice and go through the whole damn bunkhouse! Bedbugs. Oh, hell! They lived a little bit- hell, farmers used to take better care of the hogs than Potlatch took care of their men! The cookshack was the same size building and great, long tables right down the middle of it, two rows of 'em. And there was one place where they did a good job. Anything that you could imagine: they had steak for break fast, they had bacon for breakfast, hotcakes for breakfast, fruit, fresh milk, and pastry, baked goods, ummmm! Man they was just tremendous. But, after you'd been there about a month, the cake tasted just like the potatoes and the steak. I'll swear it did.
They said the reason for that was that you d got the wrinkps outof your belly, and so by that time you were getting particular. But, the cooks were good. They were tre mendous! And the Potlatch furnished them anything they wanted to cook, it just didn't matter what it was. Fresh meat used to come in there every day, as far as I know. However, earlier than that, when they didn't have the transportation why, it used to get pretty rank. When was it that you were in there at Camp 11? Well, it'dl to be 1918, I think.
So the cooking was good and the living conditions were atrocious?As tnear as they could make 'em clean.
I think you're not getting- did you hear what he said?I said, the cooking was good, the food was good, but the living conditions were terrible.
Oh, that's right. Yes.It's funny that they had both good cooking and bad living, but I've heard it before.
Well, that's the way it was. That bunkhouse was terrible. However, right at that time these IWWs come in and then it was seven men to a marion shack. And we had a room as big as this one, thirty feet long. And I believe there were ten or twelve feet wide, and there'd be two bunks across from each other in the end, that's four men and two bunks about half way up, six, and then one bunk would be in one corner or the other. And there was always an empty bunk, they never let 'em fill it, but it was just for company or camp inspection or such and such. But then, by that time, we had electric lights, bath room, showers- there was no tubs, but showers- and we could wash our clothes nights if we wanted to. And even had a special car where you could go and play cards or set and talk or read. Gen erally read in your bunk, -because it was quiet. But it just changed from terrible to pretty darn good^ just in one year. Was that year 1918?
In '18 and '19, yes, seemsAnd you attribute it to the IWWs?
right in there, I don't remem-
The labor trouble forced it. They fought it, the company fought itin every way that they could, but it just seems like they couldn't put it over. God, they used to fight that! I got a kick out of Art- and I didn't mention any names but I knew that the guy that got so white in the face was Jim 0'Connel. But they finally worked in. And instead of-
There's something wrong there because the IWWs in 1918 and Jim0'Connel came about '34-
He didn't come till 30 or in there-
There was more organizing that went on later that Art was talkingabout,^he CIO, which was during the '30's. Well, you see they had kind of a- well, first they had the 4 L's, that was the company's union.
Did they try to make you join that one?
Oh, yeah, you had to join it if you wanted to work there. Afteryou joined it all you did was pay your dues, they got no benefit from it, but it kept the unions out. And then there was a long period in there didn t have anything. And then, finally, the time that Art's talking about, was after the Depression, why then, they did form a union and guys like him that put it over. I admiredhim for putting it over and helping 'em, although after they got in there, he couldn't belong to it because they had him in a supervisor^ job. But for them to beat him out of his retire ment money over that deal was typically Potlatch. That's just the way they worked. He wasn't alone on that. Malcolm Grier and numerous ones got the same thing.
For union activity? Or for other reasons?
Oh, punishment for even sympathizing with them. Potlatch andall other companies did not want this union. They knew that they were going to have to pay wage and they didn't want to. That s breaking into profits. But they finally had to. Did you ever come- You were working there in '18- and didyou have any contact with the IWWs or with the company propaganda against No, not particularly, no, I just had a job to do and I did it. I thought IWWs was working before our time.
They were, and that's a fact.
I mean they- trying to make it work.
"The IWWs came and then they kind quieted them down and thenat the same time they got the eight hour day pretty well through and they did get clean bunkhouses. And then they kinda died down. The mines were organized and they stayed organized, but the mills didn't. And then they had this, which was just a farce, took a couple of dollars out of every check. And then there wasn't anything and then the unions came back in and organized and put it over and they've had a pretty good deal ever since. But it was a long-time struggle. Potlatch used to can these people over sympathy or making remarks or things like that, they'd can 'em. They might hire 'em back in a couple of weeks, but they'd can 'em and sometimes when they conned 'em they'd leave and go down to Bend or down to Lewiston or down to Long View. There's a lot of places they could go, if they had money enough to get out of town. (Laughter)
Most of 'em didn't have money enough to get out, unless they wentout by night.
Well, Wynmeyer took his wife and each of 'em took a kid by thefist and they walked out. They had to, they couldn't get a job. I knew they came back to town walking, but I didn't know they'd walked out. They left, but came back, did they? Uh-huh.
That was about 1930 or somewhere along that time.You ran into Wynmeyer, is that the second time he was in or the first? No, that was the first time. I never seen him the second time he was in there. No him and had a little disagreement, but ^got away with it. But he didn't. Did you work in the woods very much, Glen? Oh, yeah, I did. Up until- from 1918/t about 1926 or '27, why I did.
'26 he was-
I say, up until 1926 or '25, along in there, why, I did I put ina lot of time in the woods, and then in 1935, I think it was, we were up at Harvard and I went back into the woods then, summers and spare time and still did my farming. And.by that time I fi gured I had almost had enough of the woods, I was going to work inside if I was going to work in the winters, so I startedAthese sawmills. However, I worked 1927 and '28 in that boiler room over there in Potlatch?
Yeah. And I worked down along the dock in '29. Then in OctoberI quit andjjbought the dairy outfit. The mill shut down in When you were working in the woods, what kind of work did you usually do?
Drove a pair of horses if it was humanly possible.I knew that was what you were going to say.
But, however, sometimes I'd have to- I worked on a landing up inCamp 2 at Collins. A season. And away back before— while I was still in grade school I used to saw for Jess Hutley and can't even remember the other fellow's name. They was logging on that Lenhart place over there, we used to saw there in the summertime there. That's all the sawing I ever did to amount to anything.
GLEN: If I could get behind an old team of horses, that's what I wantedand that's what I did. And believe me, I was just good enough that if I wanted a job all I had to do, was to go into camp and ask for it. They might turn a dozen away, but I never did get turned away. I'd go into the main office up there in Bovill and tell Nogle I'd like to get a team some place and he'd say go up here or go up there and I'd have the team.
SS: So what you knew from handling a team on the farm held you ingood stead when you wanted to handle a team in the woods?
GLEN: That's right, I'd just grown up with 'em. Worked one year for Shadduck.He coulda hired fifty other guys if he'd a wanted 'em, but he wanted me and one year I worked with Corey; same deal, he could a had any amount of emj[ he wanted me. And Queener, after I star velus ted- I worked for him at Neva, that s I worked for Shadduck, and as long as Queener was logging if I wanted a job with him I had it- a team of horses to drive. I liked that. I still like a horse.
All the time in the sawmills until they made that against the lawI worked with steam in^Potlatch, the boiler room. And then later went over to run tne engine over there for a while. And then everything went electricity, there just wasn't any steam and so I went to edging then. Never to work for the lowest man on the totem pole, I want to work up there they were making pretty good money. Took just a little bit of skill. I tried to get it some way.
0:00 - Fourth of July Celebrations; Ball games against locals and outsiders; Native American Horse Races
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Segment Synopsis: Driving back to Spokane. Farmers Union an organization of farmers to better their conditions. Effort to attract new members. They brought attention to the farmers' plight but were not effective. Different kinds of farmers made it difficult to find common purpose. Advantage of Grange over the other organizations. The Grange stores.
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68:00 - Gambling on the Harvard farm; Continuing depressions; starting over and the reluctance to invest in land
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Segment Synopsis: Building the log house they live in now(starting 1950), Cutting logs and trying to get them by the miller. Use of logs. Course of house constructing was ten years, Wiring by himself because the contractor wanted the whole job. His experience helping others build their own houses. Learning woodworking in high school. The instructor said "if you could build a perfect box you could build anything.
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161:00 - Bad housing conditions at Camp 11; IWW improved conditions; Potlatch punished pro-union employees
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Segment Synopsis: Description of bughouse in Camp 11. 75 men in the room drying their clothes every night. Lousy bunkhouses. Farmers took better care of hogs than Potlatch their men,The cook shack had good food, IWW success in improving conditions within, one year. Potlatch punished employees who sympathised with union by denying them retirement benefits, Potlatch opposed union because it cut into profits. Firing employees.