Below is unprocessed text taken from a scan of our PDF document. It's messy;we know. If you would like to help us clean up these transcripts, please email Devin Becker at firstname.lastname@example.org
SAM SCHRAGER: You know I was going to ask you a rifle about a couple of yourkin down there at Arrow, who you had mentioned to me and I'd also heard were pretty interesting people, and one of them was Aunt Susie.
EDWARD GROSECLOSE: Aunt Susan?
SS: Yeah. I was wondering what you remember about her. What she was like.What do you .mean? What she was like?
Well, I had an idea she was quite a lady, is what I heard.Yeah, she was quite an old lady to get around and do and go places and take care of people when they was sick. Oh, I don't know, she was just a general old lady of them times.
SS: Do you remember her when you were first here? She was still aroundwasn't she?
DIXIE GROSECLOSE: Oh, yeah, she, oh, I don't know. Can't remember what yearthat she died. But I can remember sometime about a year or less after we came to Idaho 1907, 1908. 1908. And she was a neighbor what was it? Four miles from us?
EG: About four miles away.
DG: From our folks, and they had a big family and lived on a homesteadranch up there^below the George Johnson place down the canyon.
EG: Well, that steep hill out this side of George Johnson's there wherethem blackberries are up on the hill and across- that was their home stead there.
DG: Out from their homestead just below the track, they had a kind of agarden out there and she'd plant lots of ground cherries instead of blackberries. The later years that she put ground cherries in. She was a big worker. She done lots of sewing and crocheting and had her a garden. General all-around person.
EG: Yeah, they had their garden out there below the railroad tracks whereall them blackberries is, and they had to pack their stuff to the house from there. About a quarter of a mile.
DG: Yeah, one time she was out there gathering ground cherries, wasn't itwhen she found a dead man?
EG: Oh, yeah, found a man dead out there.
DG: I guess he was kind of a, what they call a hobo, or somebody, you know.out there. So she found a—
Early days them people used to- hobos they called 'em- they'd go alongyou know, and anywhere they got tired or anything, they'd stop. I guess this fellow was sick and laid down there by the river and died.
SS: Did you see many hobos?
EG: Oh, yes, in the early days they was a lot of 'em went along. And theyhad to bum for something to eat at different places. They was one, especially- Back in the East when anybody'd come to your place, you took 'em in the house. Rainy country back there, they never expect a fella to stay outside, but this country here, why you had all the out side to sleep in and that's where you stayed. They was a hobo come to ttoebKcountry here and bummed around for quite a while and my mother and my brother, Grover, was stayin' at my brother Will's place in 1904 when he went—
You told that before, didn't you?
Not to me.
Did the tell about the bum that had the lice?
So he come up there and they fed him but they — but he went awayand then at Christmastime my brother he come up to the rest of my brothers' up in the Potlatch and I went down there and stayed with Mother. So he come back then when there was nobody but me and my mother there and I was just— oh, I was ten years old, I guess, he come in and sit down there, and until after, oh, along ten o'clock or so she asked him if he'd rather go— "Well, maybe he would." So she showed him upstairs where to go to bed, and he went up there and the next day he got up and stayed around again. I went out and cut wood and great big two hundred pound fella, he stayed there and watched me cut wood, never offered to cut any. She got to watchin' out the door to see what was going on. While I was cuttin1 wood he was standing there with his shirt open— doing like that— she seen then he was lousy. She knowed what she was up for. So he stayed there til she sant me with a note up to a neighbor, Hickman, up there to have him come down and tell him to leave. She wrote in the note that Lazarus was there and she thought he'd been dead three days and wanted Eli to come down and take care of him, bury him or something! But while I was gone up there, why, Grover and my other brother Hughes they come down, and so they was ahavin' quite an argument when I got back down there. So they gave him the dinner- he was getting kind a fcranky with Hughes but he never would argue with Grover. And Grover'd get kinda fcranky with him. He said','1 was at your place a while back and you and I was pretty good friends." But he went away and he never come back. We had to clean up them lice! (Chuckles)
SS: How long did he stay?
EG: Oh, he come there sometime along about toward noon sometime one dayand stayed til afternoon the next before he left. They had to invite him to leave before he went.
SS: Your mother didnjt feel she could just tell him to get out?
EG: No. I don^t know what a little, old woman thought in them days if aa big, husky guy come along and stopped thataway.
DG: Back to Aunt Susan, why, she always was busy as long as she lived andI could remember, she'd work all day and then of an even ing, why, she'd sit down and she always had her mending basket or piecing quilts or crocheting, fixing, sewing, making something for some child or something that way. And so, I don't know, she finally broke her hip and was in a wheelchair for a while. And so, you'd go m, why, she was never idle ft minute, no matter what. She'd have three or four crochet things workin* 01?. She'd get kind of tired of one pattern and fool with another one. And I used to always tell her that if I ever got to heaven that I'd sure glance around and if I saw some body over in the corner with their hands aflyin' I'd go to the corner because I'd know it was her,K busy all the time. And this one time my mother was quite ill— remember she had pneumonia? But any way they was settin' up with her at night, and she'd work all day and get on a horse and ride down and set up with my mother all night and then in the morning get on her horse and go home and see about her family. And one time my dad brought the horse out of the barn, you know, for her to get on to go home and he was aholdin' the horse, and it was on a kind of a sidehill like, and it wasn't too big of a horse, and she was pretty active lady at that time, so she grabbed ahold of the saddle horn, you know-, and give a jump and jump up into the saddle and she^went clear over the horse hanging onto the saddlehorn and she jumped and she went clear on the other side instead of landing in the saddle.
SS: She get hurt at all?
DG: No hurt her it: kinda twisted her arm a little hangin' onbut she just laughed. She was always quite jolly and jokey about everything. She had a daughter and everything and oh, we kids would go there quite a lot when we were along about twelve-fourteen in there and her daughter fcjia.. Mae was beginning to learn to sew a little bit. And so she was making a nightgown and her mother offered to help her but g-fftfcMae decided that she didn't want any help, she wanted to do it all by herself and she did just fine until it come to making fes^ buttonholes and so she put her buttons on and made her buttonholes, and so, her mothere laughed so about it that she got the gown out and showed us when we went to visit, and instead of folding the cloth and just cuttin' a little lit, you know to make the buttonholes, why, cut them in round circles for her buttonholes and she worked little round circles and her mother just laughed and laughed over that, showed every body that come buttonholes.
SS: Was embarrassed by that, do you think? The girl would be embarrassed by that.
DG: Well, it didn't bother ^KMae too much, you know, but her mother justgot such a bang out of it all.
SS: Was Aunt Susan called aunt by everybody or just by her nephews? Shedidn't go by that name?
DG: Well, everybody called her Aunt Susan. There was so many Groseclosesaround, you know. It was Aunt Susan and Uncle Jim and Aunt Lizy and Big Jim and Little Jim, and all of that. But my brothers and all, when they were little, why they liked to go and visit Aunt Susan and Uncle Jim, and when they were small they'd say, "Let's go to Susan-Jim's." And they made the folks to go up to Jim's and stay all day- Susan-Jim's. "Want to go to Susan-Jim's." But Aunt Susan was just aunt to the. neices and to their nephews and everybody that come along;\Aunt Susan, yo u know.
Why would they want to spend the day at her place?
Well, they had kids that were smallt you know, and just jolly friends.And everything, you know.
SS: But she worked harder than the average woman?
DG: Well, I don't know that she actually did. They all had a lot of families,but I don t think she was a harder worker than any of.the other that did that.
EG: Well, I don't know, she was husky along about that time than the othersaround. She had that family of nine to look after. Well, I don't know, after I growed up I said that Aunt Susan and my mother was two of the meanest women that ever lived. They raised a whole bunch of boys that dddk ?t know anything. We didn't know anything about housework, we nev er had to wash fchhe dishes, we never cleaned up the house. We didn't know nothin' about that. No. Our mothers done that. Had some cousins that come down here from Spokane and they had nine kids, too, but the help little boys, when they got to be eight-nine years old, they to do the dishes. The older boys- well,the oldest one he was a bellhop from Spokane, the folks was away and the first thing he done before he got dinner was to go and take his broom and clean the whole house, clean it all up good, and then he could make a good dinner. I seen. ... there- Three girls. them people learnt their boys something, mother and Aunt Susan they just waited on on us boys like, I don't know what they did like.
SS: What about the girls? Did the girls work?
EG: Oh, yeah, the girls, they worked, they done housework.
DG: He only had one sister himself.
EG: I only had one.
DG: But Aunt Susan had four girls, I think.
SS: Now, you must have enjoyed that when you were growing up, not fo haveto do any of that stuff.
EG: Oh, yeah. But when we got a little older and had to get out on our owna little bit, it wasn't so good.
SS: You didn't know how to bach?
EG: Yeah. I went out, well, when I was seventeen, my sister, was'sixteen,we went up in the hills and milked cows. Sent all the cattle up here in the hills from Tftkean, seventeen Iwent up there and my sis ter got a toothache. It was a filled tooth, ulcerated, and there was nothing that would ease it but cold water in her mouth. You know how long that would ease it. That was all she could find. Well, she started out the next day with my brother, a preacher, he had to come out to preach, so they thought they could get a tooth pulled at Southwick; there was nobody there and *he -had to go clear to Kendrick. Then she was down in this country and when she got down here then she stayed down here two weeks. I was up there alone, and see I had eleven cows to milk and ten calves to feed and a separator to clean up and do my own cookin'; carry^water that I drunk and washed stuff up three quarters of a mile in a bucket for two weeks, and bring in my cows. Oh, I knowed how to stir up bread, but one batch, the last batch I made, I forgot to put any salt in it. And I would get up of a morning and go and milk, take the cows and get them out; tend to the calves and then I'd get my breakfast over about ten o'clock. Get things cleaned up about ten and then lay down and sleep til about three. Get up and go and out after the cows. There was no fences, you pointed the cows north and you'd expect to go north to find 'em and if they cirlced and went south, maybe you didn't find 'em for a day or two. So this other even ing I come in and my oldest brother and his wife and my sister come in with a four horse team. My brother got sick and my sister had to drive the team in; she hadn't been used to drivin' four horses; she was good with two. She come in with that outfit. I got in and I had nothin' to eat, they'd eaten everything up. My sister-in-law she said that was the best bread she'd ever eat. Well, she'd been out all day with^nothin' to eat. And I Laughed at her, I told her that I could beat her cookin'! She stayed there for a couple of weeks, and boy, if she didn't do her best. She put cream in her biscuits. She had biscuits you could hard ly pick up, they'd pretty near fall to pieces. But I never would brag on her, only, "That was pretty good."
SS: She was doing that because you had been doing all the cookin' by yourself?
EG: I had been doing thgiycookin' and she wanted me to brag on her cookin'.She could cook, alright, but then she could slop it up, too, if she wanted to. Didn t try all the time, but that time she was doin' her best.
SS: What do you think the idea was that your mother and pur aunt didn'tteach the boys?
EG: Oh, I don't know, I guess back up to their time that was the way it wasdone, and they was a little older than this other family. And this other family was raised in town. I guess that's the way all old-timers done, the men done work outside the house and the women done the a that inside. If they didn't have enough to do,, they'd get a hired girl to help. Men didn't do much, I guess, only when they had to go out in the hills huntin1, or somewhere like that.
DG: Women didn'tjgo out and help in the fields, you know, like they did inlater years. You know, they'd maybe spin and weave and sew and cook
Yeah, they did£ My mother used to go out in the fields and beans.
SS: When she was young?
EG: Yeah, well, she was young, yes, it was after I could remember though-I was the youngest one, she wasn't very young.
SS: What you're sayin'—
DG: Well, my folks, I can't remember my aunts and all of them, you knowand Granddad's family doing very much outside work, but they would help to gather in the fruit or something, and then when they got big enough they'd go and do housework for somebody else, you know, to earn money, but I can't remember of them just going out in the fields and takin part in everything.
Then you figure then that the ouMe work was more later for women?Seems to me like it is. More and more women's lib!
Well, what about you? Were you raised to do just the inside woto(, forthe most part?
No, not entirely. My main chores at home though was really bringingin the cows and milking and things like that. And I didn't do an awful lot of work,
EG: Didn't do much field and garden work.
DG: I married pretty young, and then after I was married, why, I loved towork outdoors. I still don't like housework. I don't like any part of it. I used to like to go out and shock hay and mow the hay back in the barn when they hauled it in. And I never did do much mowing, but I did quite a lot of raking and shocking and hauling and all like that. I guess I didn't understand enough,. I'd run into something with the mower blade, but I tried it a little bit. Even tried plowing a little, but I didn't get very far with that because cut and cover, But I just thought it was fun.
SS: Because what?
DG: Plowed- cut and cover, you know, just get in and out,' ' keepthe furrow like he did and Id get real aggravated. When oldest daughter was a baby I went out, it was so lonesome, you know, went out in the field where he was aplowin'. followin along after him, watchin' him plow, and I asked him to let me plow and he could carry the baby, and so, he let me try, you know. And I would get pretty ag gravated because I couldn't do it as good as he could! (Chuckles)
EG: Well, that's a funny thing about them old footburner plows. A manthat was used to runnin' 'em, you see, he knows that every move that plow makes, and it's just adjusted like that, you know, but the first time you start to plow, if that plow starts to go too far, take too much land, well, you don't notice it until it's got over there four or five inches then you throw it back and when you throw it bac, most likely you'll throw it too far, and it'11 be going this waywhen it goes this far it won't cut it all out and just throw it over and that's what they call cuttin' and covering when you don't do it, and then you press down the handle a little too much, it'll come up and make dog beds and-
SS: Dog beds?
EG: Yeah, dog beds in there- the plow don't run level, why, it'll go up anddown you know, and make a deep place and a shallow one. It's quite a thing to that.
SS: That's what was happening to you?
DG: Cuttin and coverin'. I didn't plow a very long strip, but walkalong and seeing him easy and smooth, you know.
EG: Well, I don't know, you never seemed to think after you got used totunnin' that plow, if it started to go too far thataway, why you just back, you know. Well, it was all done within an inch, if that tipped an inch, why you throwed it back an inch and you held it right there^ And if you had a plow sharpened right, you could set it in the ground and turn it loose and it would run, but if it wasn't, why then, you had to keep fightin' it.
SS: Well listen, if you didn't like to do the housework and that kind ofstuff and the cookin' so much, you still must have had to do an awful lot of it in those days, didn't you? and
DG: Well, I- when I was home havin' the younger brothers, you know the onesister,^1 was eight years older than the rest of 'em, and I had to do a lot of work, and a lot of babysittin' and a lot of water carryin' and quite a bit of washing and dishwashing and cooking.^Unless Mama was sick I didn't do such a lot of the cookin', but he was pretty good to help with the cookin'. And she cooked because we never had a lot on hand and couldn't afford to waste anything or fix thing nobody could eat. (Chuckles) But I had to do a lot of preparing and getting things in.
SS: You think that that's why you didn't like it so much, 'cause you had todo so much of that when you were young? When you were a kid? I don t know, but I just naturally— Now, my youngest— my only sis ter- my mother could knit and crochet and sew and all that, but I never cared for any of that. My sis is like that. She can do all kinds of fancy work and Icould sew alittle bit, a quilt, Idon't to be very particular or anything. I think it was beautiful to see it, but I'd rather have amagazine or a book or out playin' along the river, or something that way, you know. I'd rather have a fishin' pole than I would to have a needle in my hand, or a crochet hook. (Chuckles) Did you say to me before that you had to miss a lot of school because
SS: of your mother being sick?
Yes, I missed a lot. I don't know if I've done away with my report cardsbut I used to have 'em; quite a few of 'em, and oh, out of a seven or eight month term, I probably wouldn't average attendance of what would figure four months out of a term in the schoolroom. I'd be missing so much through sickness in the family.
It wasn't your being sick so much as your mother? Right?
No, I didn't miss a lot on my being so sick, just mostly some of therest of the family, you know, helping with the little ones and with my mother.
SS: Do you feel that that retarded your learning?
Do you think that held back your learning a lot to miss too much school?Could you catch up and that kind of thing easy?
Well, I could do pretty good. I got along good with school. I likedschool, and even some of the teachers tried to encourage me to go on with school, but financial wise and the folks would have had to let me stay away from home and all, and they didn't agree to it, but I did manage to make my grade each year. I made a grade^a year in spite of it all, you know.
SS: Do you remember how you felt about that then? I mean, did you feel thatyou were really missing out to not be able to go to school all the time?
DG: Well, I did feel bad that I couldn't go. I don't remember that I reallyfelt that I was being held back. Someway I could understand that I was needed, but I liked to go, -ift it made me feel real bad not to be able to go more. To be in school. But, I don't know, I I more or less accepted it as something that had to be. always kind of felt that I did. And when I look back on the things that I did, why, I learned an awful lot of lessons, and quite a bit that helped me after I was married and.life went on. And being poor people, when I look back on it, why, I think.I learned something from all of it, that was — been helpful in my years later.
SS: When you say you learned something, then you think of it like you learnedhow to care for people?
DG: Well, yeah more understanding of people and how to be content— to getalong with what you have and things like that, you know. And just kinda accept what comes and not expect to be a millionaire when you had only(Chuckles)
SS: Was your mother sick chronically?
DG: Well, no, not so much. The babies come pretty fast and then she had attimes off and on, there was kidney problems and pneumonia, and just things that would happen along. But she finally had a stroke, oh, that was, of course, several years after I was married. She passed away when she was only sixty-four. And there must have been It hit her in the morning and she was never conscious til night.
SS: But when you were helping and you were staying out of school, was itmostly when she was just actually sick or when you were needed to help raise the kids?
DG: Well, whenever- just whenever I was needed to help with the youngsters,and little things that I could do, you know. The neighbors would come in and help what they could with the work, but it was just somebody to be in the house all the time.help look after the smaller ones when the dad happened to be outside, you know. It was just that I was— Well, back then, an eight year old kid can do quite a bit, you know, looking after little ones from babies on up to three and four and five years old. And you knew enough to kind of keep 'em out of too much trouble.
SS: Was she in bed for much of this time when you were home helping insteadof at school?
DG: I was never out so much when she was able to be out of bed. She wasn't Ibed— well, maybe two or three weeks at a time, and maybe in another two three weeks why there'd be— if she wasn't ill some of the children would be and there would be a need, you know. Maybe I'd get to school one week out of some months and then some months maybe I'd be there all b^£ maybe only six or seven days out of the month. All in all, if I had my record through all the years that I went, I don't think I was in school more than what would you say? More than half of the time?
EG: Something like that.
DG: You can remember looking at the cards. talkin' about it.
SS: Then after you two got married, you had to do all that work over againat home. I mean, there was all that work you had to do just the same.
DG: After I got married, why, I was workin' for us and started having myown kids. And then when I got a chance to go out in the fields some because I liked to go out your know when he'd be mowin' and he'd let me drive the team and rake. I went not because he ordered me to, or anything but just simply that I liked to, that I wanted to be out. And then up at Tekean, when we lived there, there was one summer that, oh, there was a neighbor had a job and he had quite a bit of hay to put up, and he kept trying to find somebody to put it up, you know, so he could stay on the job and so Ed didn't have anybody to help him and our kids were small, and so he took the job of hauling the hay— with the wagon and a team, and I went with him and would help him pitch it on, you know haul it out of the shock. You mowed it? Did you mow it? Or just haul it?
EG: I think I just hauled it.
DG: Hauled it and put it in? But, anyway, why, it took us three or fourdays.to put the hay in, and we d get our chores done and take the lit tle kids and drive out. What was it, about three miles to this place and then we'd haul hay all day. And I can remember we needed the money so bad, and I think it was thirty dollars we got for putting that hay in. I'd help pitch on the wagon and then mow it back in the barn, and like that. And so I was his hayhand through that job. And we the money and very glad to get it. And I didn't think, really, too much about it. It was something that I enjoyed doing.
SS: Sounds like you really had rough times, where you just really neededthe money that you could get.
DG: Well, we never, had very much wealth. (Chuckles) I had quite a littlesickness after I was married. Oh, I had lots of tonsilitis and we let it go too long, really, before we had the tonsils taken out, and it kinda ruined my health. And after our second child was born, I was a whole year before I was gettin' straightened out where I could do very much work, and that made it pretty rough on him, and he had to help with with us the house and sometimes we could have somebody that— part of the time. Oh, to look back on it, it seemed kind of rough at the time, and now, it seemed that you kind of grew from it more than you would from having just everything handy and just at your finger tips, like our three older children had it kind of rough and had to walk quite a ways to school, and we didn't used to have much. And while the other two didn't have much, well, they had much better opportunities and much better chance than the older ones did, you know, finances. And things got a little bit better. But the older ones feel that they really, when they look around at their own kids and their grandkids and all, and they talk about it, and they feel that they really, you know, didn't miss any thing, because they felt that they learned alot about life, too, you know. How to consider others and all. Iknow that whenever they got a treat of any kind, especially the oldest one, why, she got a nickle or got acandy bar, or somebody give her one, she never eat it^anything til she got home and cut it up equally and divided it with the others. Nowadays, why, kids, I don't know, they're not all that way, Idon't mean that, but I can see it in the little younger ones, they're run ning into the store for something all the time, and maybe they're gonna give somebody a bite and once in a while they'll divvy up but it seems like it's just different somehow. Ican see it in our grandkids, they're different than other kids. And there was one thing, there wasn't too much trying to keep up with Jonses, because pretty near everybody were in the same boat. You know, the neighbors and the neighborhoods we lived in, there wasn't very many families that was enough ahead of you you know, or what you consider real well-to-do, that you need to feel too out of place. Most everybody was just about the same boat. Willing to share and so on.
How much did the kids- did they really pull together as they were growing up? Imean, did the family operate as a unit? You know what Imean? Or were they kind of- I mean would they share in your concerns about having enough to make do?
Yeah. Ididn't think we ever had any trouble. Did you?
We got along really quite good. We've been pretty proud of the kids inthat respect. And I know our oldest boy, one time Iwas talkin' to him and Isaid, "Well, the two younger ones, while they didn't have anything and everything," he was working pretty steady then, and they had bet ter opportunities and both of them went into good jobs right out of high school, and so I was talking to Virgil about how it was with them and how lucky they were, you know, if they had a treat, and the things that we did and had and didn't have, and, "Oh, well," he says, "Well, Ma we didn't miss it. Well, you just never missed it, you just don't know the difference, when you don't have everything now, you don't miss it, do you?" Well, I got to thinking about it, and you just knew you wasn't going to have it. And you didn't spend your time grievin1 over it, you just made-do. And I was laughin' about it; we're the make-do family, I said, "If we didn't have it, we could do without, or find something else to take it's place."
SS: Were there ever times, Ed, when you were worried about having enough tomake-do?
EG: Well, I don't know as I worried much about it. I just made-do withwhat I had.
DG: There was times that he had it awful rough.I just had to take it as what I got, and make-do with that. Wasn't nothin' to worry about, because- in the '30's there, there wasn't nobody, nothin' to do, and there was five or six people in our neighborhood down there that needed work, but there was no use to go anywhere else because when you went over in the cities, why they was there by the hundreds- that was a lookin' for work! We had a little place we could grow garden and grow most of the stuff we eat, so we was that much bet ter off than most of the people. We had some chickens and generally a pig or two and a cow or so. I got down once I didn't have any cows. And then I got ahold of two and the train killed 'em both one day. They got on the track; train killed 'em both. And the company, they
EG: was kinda slow about payin'. I got ninety dollars for the two of 'emat that time.
DG: That bought us another cow.
EG: Yeah, everybody else wanted more for their cow than what the railroadpaid me for that.
DG: least we got something back out of it.
EG: They was so slow that I told 'em if they didn't pay me I was gonna puta fifteen dollar a month milk bill on that— add it on, because that was all the milk cows I had. ThejY they paid me. When you got an ani mal killed by the railroad,you're generally about six months gettin' the pay, or longer. My folks places down there, the railroad run right through 'em, and they'd put the cattle one one side for a while and then the other and then they'd come and crawl through the fence. Well, there was always good feed on the railroad, and,stock would get to pushin' on that fence and some of 'em'd learn how to crawl through and others just naturally get through and then didn't know how to get back out. That was thejmes that got killed. Let's see, I think we got about five killed at one time. And then he got three horses killed and another'n crippled at one time on the track.
SS: Did you find that you could get by by bariermg and not using money?In the early days? Were there many chances for that?
EG: Well, yes. there was a lot of that you know. Like—
DG: Well, you could trade work.
EG: Well, you didn't know^a dozen eggs— you didn't know how much it costyou to produce them eggs, but then you could always take them to the store and trade 'em for something. Generally, eggs run from fifteen to twenty-five cents, here in this country. But back in the East, why, they used to go to five cents a dozen, back there.
DG: That was about 1904. 1901. We left the East in '02. Got out here, eggs were twobits, at that time.
DG: I can't remember exactly how much eggs was when I come out, you know,they in 1907. But I can remember bought, what ;caey call percale,.now they call it calico and made clothes, you could get it for five and ten cents a yard. And you could get the nicest lace about they had for five cents a yard, and all like that. And then my mother worked a lot for seventy cents a week and managed to do pretty well on it, then finally, I think, I believe the most she ever got was about two and a half a week when she worked for a doctor and his family.
EG: That was before she come West. She never worked for no wages after shecome out here.
DG: No, not after she came out in 1908.
SS: Two and a half a week?
Yeah, back in well, 1900, why, girls would go and work for fifty centsa week. And a young woman would go and do all the housework for a dol lar a week, back in them good old days!
Instead of five and eight, ten dollars a day, why, they—! (Chuckles)But, of course, you could buy an awful lot with that amount of money then, too.
Well, back at that time there, what they called that calico, was threecents a yard, so, you see, for about twelve cents they could buy enough of calico to make a big dress or two dresses.
SS: Did you always have enough clothes for the kids? Or did you find youhad to mend 'em and patch 'em?
DG: When , or when I was growmup?
SS: Well, both.
DG: Well, there was a lot of makin' over and hand-me-downs. People'd givethings— now, my mother, being good at sewing, why, she did an awful lot of making over out of older things. And Dad was well acquainted with a lot of railroad men, you know, like conductors on trains or engineers and all like that, and a lot of trains went through. And he was a cripple man, too, so instead of sending things to the Goodwill; never heard of the Goodwill then, you know, really, but they would sometimes throw off sacks, gunny sacks, of clothes. Older suits and dresses or whatnot and discards; they knew the family didn't have very much, and they'd throw that off. And Mother'd rip up the suits, and she made the boys suits. And I've got pictures of 'em where they're all dressed up in clothes she made and she made their trousers and shirts. And so, once in a while they was made out of new material, but we didn't get anything much all ready made, that was bought'. And then with us— well, I didn't like to sew very well, I have did quite a bit of it, and we used a lot of makin' over. Quite a lot of mending, and all like that, too.
SS: What did your stepfather do to make a living?
DG: Well, he trapped a lot f$. the winter. And at one time, that's 'fore hewas married, though, he had a little store.
SS: At Arrow?
DG: Uh-huh. And he raised, you know, corn and hay and had cows andchickens and raised hogs for meat.
EG: quite a little business at Arrow at one time.
He worked out in the harvest fields some, during the harvest period.And then in the wintertime he'd make- he and Ed's brother, Will, worked together a lot and did reasonably good with trapping.
Well, at that time, the skunks— they was a Doctor Foster here in Juliaetta and he was a rubbin' doctor and he would take skunk oil and he'd give a dollar a pint for skunk oil, and he'd take that and rub his pa tients with it for arthritis or rhtMnatism, stuff like that. He used that skunk oil, so he'd handle all the skunk oil they could get. They wasn't too many people catchin' em and rendering that out. And then there was a Chinaman he run onto down there at Lewiston give twen ty-five cents for skunk gall. So the skunks he could get, he'd get twenty-five cents for the gall and a dollar a pint for the oil. Oh, I don't think possibly ajskunk'd make apint of oil, but then it took a lot of skunks to make—
What about skins?
What about the fur?
Well, the fur, they got- I don't know just what they got for that, butthey got something out of the fur, too. And that oil.
Did they trap anything else, Ed?
EG: Oh, yes, they trapped- well, along at that time coons were just aboutgone outta the country, but coyotes, they picked up quite a few of them. You know, in them days, coyotes, they had a bounty on 'em of two and a half, and then they'd get the fur off of 'em in the wintertime. So a coyote made a fella quite a little money. But, nowdays they don't let you— they won't let ya kill a coyote hardly.
You told me once that you figured that the Indians got lice off the whitesif they got 'em from any place. Do you think that's true? Yeah. Well, yes. Well, now that hobo that I was tellin' ya about stay ed with us there, and before we come out here my brothers were stayin'— baching with a feller up the Little Potlatch there and a white man come and stayed with them. He come there with some Indians. And then these white fellers stayed there a day or two, and he give them lice. So chances are he give the Indians lice fore he come there. And then, stayed there and he borrowed my brother's horse. Well, one brother had a saddle and the other had a horse and they put the two together and this fella borrowed 'em to go somewhere and he never did come back!
DG: These are the four oldest brothers, and here they are when they're athey had on little older. But all the clothes were made these suits were made out of hand-me-downs, old suits and things, and then they're just barefooted,
EG: They said the man- oh he was burnin' the brush and the man was workin'on Sunday burning brush, and then the fella— oh, I don't know what, somebody told him that he'd send him where there wasn't no Sunday, so he sent him to the moon. And that's the way the man got in the moon; he was burning brush on Sunday. That's the old story.
DG: That's the old, old story about Solomon Grunday burning brush on Sunday.Kind of a, what you call it?
EG: That was an old story. That's the way the man got in the moon, wasthat he was burnin working on Sunday— he was burning some brush on Sunday!
DG: An old fable.
SS: Well, you say in here, Ed, too, what you said to me before. That youthink the Indians were more civilized than the white man. I'm just curious about that. Do you really think it's true?
SS: I'm not saying no; I'm not saying I disagree with you a bit.
EG: When the white man come here, the things that they done— Well, now thefirst ones that come here, the first settlement was a bunch of outlaws, you know, said they was a bunch of gamblers that had went broke and they come here to find money; find gold. That's what they come for.
SS: Come where?
EG: Come to America.
SS: Oh, here.
EG: And there was only one man in the bunch that knowed enough to govern'em, and that was John Smith. Well, he went to the Indians an they give him corn. The first time he got corn for a little- I don't knowmaybe a few beads; he went back again, and they was slow about givin' him corn, and he took a gun and went to the chief,ytold him that he'd fill up their ships with corn or he'd fill 'em with their dead bodies, and they took the corn away from 'em. Held 'em up. What would you think of that today if a man come to your place and- strangeryou treated him good and he went away and he come back a little while later and held ya up and took everything you had? That's the kind of fellows that the first settlers was in this country. Now then, the Indians-
DG: If they didn't take it all, they forced 'em to give 'em what they wanted,
EG: Yeah, they took what they wanted from 'em by force. And then they trade'em a little something and then the Frenchmen they come and went up the Mississippi and took that country there, everything in the Mississippi, that was their's. Well, then they sold that— the United States give 'em $20,000,000 fer it, and then they told all over the world, come out to this free country, come in here. And they come; went to takin' Indian land. The Siouxs— some of the Indians, they might have been a few of 'em that worshipped idols, but the Siouxs and the Nez Perces, they wasn't that kind. The Siouxs they had a history— I read part of it of their's— that they believed in divine healing. They had great medicine. They called it great medicine. And they were very proud of their women. The women was the Mother to men, and anybody that wronged a woman - a Sioux woman - he was in trouble. If one of their own didn't take and take care of , they'd take him over the hill and kill him with rocks.
SS: You told me about that.
EG: Well, that was that. Well, then these three drunken cowboys come andcaught these two squaws and kept 'em overnight, and then turned 'em out and the next night three of these white men was hung. Well, them men had no business going into that Sioux country. That was a nation of different people. But, of course, they wasn't as strong- they wasn't as well fixed militarily as the white man, so he just— well, that was the way in them days. If one bunch of people wasn't as well prepared with the armies as the other, why, the other one just run over 'em; that wasn't considered wrong in them days.
DG: The Indians was pretty civilized when we come though.We always gotalong pretty good in any of our dealings.
EG: Yes, they had awful good morals. Old Joseph's father, he says, "The worlddon't belong to anybody. You use the world as long as you're here, and then it goes to somebody else." That was his theory. He was one of Spalding's first converts.
DG: The world belongs to God, and we're just tenants.
EG: You are here and as long as you're here and as long as what you do withit. But then, the Indian was here and he had a good livin'. The animals and stuff that growed in this country here- he made a good livin'. Got along fine here. And he had no idea— that's another funny thing- the Indian had no idea of any other part of the world except where he was. Well, the other people over there, had no idea that there was any other Part of the world except what they had. They knowed of India, but they couldn't get there because the Truks blocked the trail. And Colum bus got the idea he's coming' around this way and get to India, and he come to America, well, America- the Indians didn't protect their country because they was no other part of the world to them but that. So the white man come and they treated him good and he got a foothold, and then he kept a kickin' the Indians around.
DG: Just takin' a little more.
EG: Takin' a little more and more all the time til he took the whole countryover. Then the Nez Perce that didn't want booze on their reservation, but the white man come in here and bootleggers sold it to 'em. And they caused the death of an awful lot of good Indians by peddling booze to 'em,
DG: The young people ree so much, he's quite tolerant towards theIndians because they were here, you know, first. But these younger peo ple now, where the Indians are finally getting money back, you know, from all of this, why, they don't think the Indians got it comin'. I know—There's a lot of people that don't think they've got it comin' and thftf's a lot of 'em that do think they've got it acomin'. But then in the early days the people didn't think was nothing' just kick him out, shoot him, do anything with him. And a nigger the same way. I'll tell you a story about a policeman my brother knew back in Old Virginia 'long about 1903- '04, round there. This policeman shot a negra - well the nigger was two bits a dozen then, you know, and killing a negra you didn't ; ab nothing, but it got on this policeman's mind. And when he'd go to bed at nights, this nigger would be agittin' in bed with him. And when he'd be out, he'd see the nigger walking with him. He shot himself. But up to that time, you know, it wasn't considered nothing, but after he'd killed that one, why, he just got spooked by it and he went crazy. Killed himself. That's one thing, you know, it's not so- let's say you killed a man- that's something that's not so good after you've done it, why, most likely it'll git your mind. You might think- git mad at him- oh,"I'11 kill him." Well, then, if you're just turned loose and never git caught, why, it'll most likely show up on ya sometime. And then there's a funny thing about people— gunmen shootin' at a man. He's a great big thing, but awful good marksmen how they can shoot at a man and miss him, as big a thing as he is. I don't know, there's just something about your nerve and things that way.
DG: Maybe they don't always intend to hit ya.
EG: That gun never snapped. It was a good gun. He pulled it out and heshot at a stump and it fired every shot just as regular as they come. But when he pulled it on that man it snapped, every bullet around snapped, didn't fire when he pulled it on that man, but agoin' pulled it on a stump and fired every shot.
SS: Did he fire more than once at this man he got mad at?
EG: He never fired it; never fired the gun. He snapped it clear aroundat him.
DG: What do you mean, he snapped it clear around?
EG: Well, it was a six-shooter and he tried to shoot him six times, andthe gun snapped every time.
SS: When you say snapped; what does that mean?
EG: It just snapped, it don't fire.
SS: Clicked, but didn't fire.
EG: Clicked, but didn't fire, but when he took it and cut into that stumpit fired every time.
SS: He must have been pretty mad at that guy? He was ready to kill him,was he?
EG: Yup. He was drunk, and he was —
DG: It wasn't his fault at the time that he didn't kill him.
EG: No. It wasn't his fault. It was the Almighty had his arms aroundhim that kept that gun from firing.
SS: Well, you know, you grew up around the Indians out here.
EG: Yeah, I growed up among 'em.
SS: What did you think of their way of dealing with people as compared tothe white man's way?
EG: Well, they were honest.
DG: 'They was honest ones and they was just—
EG: Well, they was some of 'em that would be crooked. They learnt most ofthe crookedness from the white man. They was honorable people. When they said they'd do something, they'd generally carry it out. Sometimes they pulled some funny tricks; like my sister's homestead downAhere, they'd had the line surveyed between her and the Indians. And they set some stakes there. One tall stake and some low ones. My sister ^line of fence had never been put through. The Indians fenced away down around on her place. So this morning my brother got up and went out on a porch and there this old lady Allen and a Indian neighbor, Jim Red Coyote was out there foolin' around the corner, and Jim had the stake, the big stake. Albert hollered at him to put it back and he took over towards the railroad track and my brother, Grover says, "Maybe he just around track site." And when he got over on the railroad, he didn't stop on there, there was a big fill and he got behind the rail road track and went up to the other Indian's place up there. Wall, they decided that'd be about as good a day as any to put the fence through. So my brother went up to his corner, forty rods away and come down and sited to look.where this corner was where they d had there on the flat, and when he looked at that, and then looked on over across the country, why, it wasn't very f£r til he was a quarter of a mile off. The line was supposed to have went this a way and from where they'd moved that corner there a rod or two in the field why, it was way off over this way time they got over the river. That wouldn't do. So they had to go up to the school section corner theft on the hill a quarter of a mile up there and come from there down iron there to this established corner and then they'd get the line through. And they got a line through and put the main part of the fence in.
SS: So they put it back where it had been?
EG: Well, we got it back where it was by going up to the school sectioncorner a quarter of a mile further and then looking down at my brother's corner where the fence was in, but his corner post leaned a little and after we got the fence in the Indians had Briggs, the surveyor to come and survey it and he moved the fence three feet out. We'd got up on the Indians three feet and they put in the fence then the whole way through, and tore our fence out and throwed it off of their place. So it was always the Indian fence the whole way along that line there. We never did put in any fence.
SS: I want to ask you more about the Indians, but that reminds me; that storyyou told me about Kimberling and his fence being off his line.
SS: How did he get his line off in the first place?
EG: Well, I don't know.
SS: Had it been surveyed before he was there, or what? Had the land beensurveyed already or what?
EG: No, he'd never had it surveyed. He musta started at the Indian cornersomewhere and then just went out and measured too far.
DG: Did he buy.?
EG: He homesteaded. Him and Tom Hall homesteaded, both of 'em, in that drawthere. Tom was his son-in-law. And Kimberling just got in and got a place located there and then just built a fence til he got tired of fencing . There was nobody around him so, he just stuck his fence way out. Took in twenty, thrity rods more than what he had comin'.
SS: Just didn't pay no attention to it?
EG: No, he didn't pay no attention to it, took what he wanted. Builthis house on vacant land and put an orchard on vacant land. There was a little patch of good land there and up on his place in the draw it wasn't any good. So he put out his garden and orchard on vacant land. Built his house on vacant land. Built his barn on vacant land and proved up on it, thataway.
SS: What year was it when he left and your brother got his place?
EG: I don't know- let's see, I don't know what year he sold out to Fisherand left the country nere.
SS: Were you still a kid?
SS: Oh, it don't matter.
EG: Oh, it was '07 or '08 that he got out of here.
Among the Indians that lived around where you were raised; did you haveany personal friends? Ones that you were close to?
Yes, they was one boy; he was a little older than Iwas, but Joh^on Williams, he went off to school and he learned to talk English. And he come back and he wouldn't talk Indian any more, only to an old Indian that couldn't understand English. To one like that he'd talk a little, but very little. And I used to ask him what the Indians called some thing; he didn't know. He would never tell me what anything was in Indian. Now if he'd a been a boy that would told me what stuff was in Indian, I'd a learned to talk Indian. But no, he wouldn't do it. If I heerd an Indian word, and would tell him the word he would in terpret it; tell me what it was in English, but he wouldn't tell me.
SS: Why not, do you think? He just didn't want to speak it any more?
EG: Just didn't want to speak it. And then he learnt all his family; theyall learned to speak. When his little sister went to school, why, they had learned to talk- speak English, you know, when they first start ed to school. That was a great help to them. Now there was some other girls went— well, this Sam Waters down here, when he started to school he couldn't talk a word of English. He had to learn it along with his school work. And then the Mc Catty (?) girls, Tillie and Jane, they had to learn English from readin' in their books and J:he teacher talk, But the Williamses they knowed how to talk when they went to school. They could talk good, because Johnson learnt 'em. He only lived to be about nineteen and he died. There's a tombstone down there across from— across the river from Albrights, then there's a locust tree up there; I planted the locust tree and this tombstone, there's eight Indians' epitaphs on that tombstone. The Williams family therewell Johnson-
SS: How did he die?
EG: Tuberculosis. And Tom- and I don't know what his wife's name was- shenever could talk English, or never would, then Esther and Agnes and Tom and his wife and Johnson, and then there was three younger ones. Eight of 'em all on that there. And then there was a stranger buried; there was nine in that graveyard over there where that tombstone is and that one locust tree's standing up there by it. I plated the lo cust tree up there when I rented the place and used to farm it there a while. Well, I rented it because there was wood on it, I needed the wood. There was driftwood there, lots of driftwood on there and I rented the place for that. And then I did farm it a little. Well I rented it for the— I only paid twenty dollars a year for it.
SS: What did you use the wood for?
EG: For my house.
Yeah. I got the wood out of there for two, three years before I rentedthe place where Elliott Williams lives, I rented that and was there for better'n two years.
Where did your friend go to school when he went away?
He went to school down there at Arrow, down there where Joe Wing lives.That's where the schoolhouse was.
SS: That's where he learned his English?
No, I don't know where he went to learn his English. Some Indian schoolsomewhere. father and his family lived on that place, and their house was kinda under the hill over there on the far side of the river, down in there, and I guess that was a damp place in that flat. Must have been what caused 'em all to have TB and die young, possibly*living in there right close to the river. But Amos— An Indian could split up a piece of ground, but a white man couldn't. If you had forty acres that there was five acres of good land and the rest was all scab, you had to take the whole forty to get that. But an Indian could take ten acres or five or twenty or whatever it was. So Amos split two forties and took all that ground in there that's rock, over across the railroad. That was A-l farm land when the railroad went in there, but they cut that bluff off and turned the river down in there and it just kept eatin' that way til instead of going right down the railroad where it was supposed to, why, it's clear over against the other hill now. Washed all that flat away, there was about twenty-five acres there. But them Indians, they moved the corners, and there's nobody today knows but them Indians where them corners was supposed to be.
SS: They moved the corners?
EG: Yeah, destroyed the corners where Briggs had marked. We couldn't everfind 'em. Briggs could tell ya close to where they was, but exactly where the corners was nobody ever found 'em. They was supposed to be a rock mark at every quarter corner. They got rid of ' em.
SS: Did you trust when the Indians told you something? Did you trust them;what they said?
EG: Weeel, no, not too much. They would lie, but they wouldn't steal, theearly day ones. They're different now.
SS: I want to ask you about Foster. You had mentioned to me just when Iwas leaving the last time, I wanted you to tell me when you went do wn there for treatment.
DG: Well, he had become such an alcoholic by that time, til you couldn'tdepend on him for treatments. And Ed had left me there- they had, they called it the Health Home right by where they had the offices, the dif ferent doctors, you know, for to do the osteopathic— I think that's what they were-. And so, he said I'd get two treatments a day and the food, the kind of diet I was supposed to be on. And so he thought, well, give me the best advantage, you know for the time I was down there, so he left me there at the Home. And, to begin with, oh, for a morning or two I got what I was supposed to have, then they got so they'd put things out, you know, that didn't agree with me, and that wasn't ordered by the doctor. And I had a little trouble there, you know, and he had to get after 'em to get 'em to fix the things I was supposed to have. And then it went along two, three days just fine. And then one^ I went over to take my treatment and he was in no condition to give me one, so I went on back over and waited til the time for the evening treatment and I went back and he was still, you know kind of under the weather, so I was kind of a little disturbed— and what was it? A Marshall, a Doctor Marshall? Dr. Marsh? I'm not sure about his name now, Marsh I think. And he told me, he said, "Well, rather than for you to miss a treatment," he said, "if you prefer, I will give you a treatment." Well, I thought that was better than missing, so he give me the treat ment that night. Well, the next morning I went over and didn't see nothin' of Dr. Foster at first, so Dr. Marsh come by and wanted to know if I wanted to take another treatment by him, and so I told him I did. So, he was givin' me a treatment when Dr. Foster walked in, and he still wasn't- he was drinking enough that he wasn't too good, but he got kind of mad. He said, "Oh, so you just took it on yourself to change doctors, have you?" And I said, "Well, the idea was," I said, "you weren't av ailable and so I didn't want to miss my treatments." And so, I don't know, I guess maybe Foster give me a treatment or two after that, but he was always kind of disgruntled, you know, about it some way. And then— what was it happened to the— cloudburst come and—
EG: Cloudburst come and tore the water system out and they had an awful timegettin' water around there.
DG: Had to haul it and put it on the street corners in barrels, you know, forthe people. And they couldn't get good water, and so it ended up, he just took me home.
SS: Was this during the time you were sick after having your baby?
DG: Yes, it was the year after. The baby was our second child- and whatwas she? About five months old when I was down there at Fosters?
EG: Something like that. I don't know.
SS: Did Foster have a good reputation at that time?
DG: Well, outside of his drinking-
EG: He had had a good reputation up to that time. I don't know much abouthim after that. But I know he got to drinking a lot.
SS: Do you think that when he was up here in Juliaetta that he was highlyregarded, while he was here?
EG: Yes, he was here.
DG: Apparently, as far as we know. We had no personal contact^ withhim at that time.
EG: Well, my folks did. My uncle and him was great friends here. And himand his wife finally quit, and I happened to see her. She come up to see my aunt up here one time, and she was tellin' a story about the fel la comin' and sellin' twelve— I believe it was twelve bottles of moon for thirty dollars. And he give the fella a sample and she'd quit the doctor then and she said, "I think the old doctor was in on that. Got caught on that." But he took a lot of people. Thirty dollars for twelve bottles of drinks, booze, supposed to be booze, and when they got it it was cold tea! And he was gone. They figured he'd come from North Carolina and he got money enough that ^way to go back. So I suppose he went back, nobody knows what become of him, but he didn't show up no more.
DG: I don't know maybe some of his sons might be alive and still know, buthe was really supposed to have cured several cancers of the breast. I don't know that internally or anything like that that he could do any thing for 'em. But the lumps that came and all, and he put what called a burner on. But I've seen the people that had the treatment and when they had that on, why, they just out and walked, practically day and night, just out walking the street, you know, just and walk because of the pain. But there was several people that it seem ed- don't know of course, never followed 'em up for years afterwards, whether it ever come back on 'em.
SS: So the treatment itself was kind of painful?
DG: Yah, very much so. And then he had a niece, passed away with cancer ofthe breast, and she was expecting a little one, and she noticed just before it was born, she noticed this lump, but they didn't think too much about it, thought it was milk gland or something. So when the youngster was born- they didn't go to the hospital them days- the doc tor came to the home- and he- She said to her husband, she said, "Now I mustn't forget to ask the doctor about this lump." And so she said that everything was.taken care of and the doctor started to leave, he even got out to the car and she told her husband, "Call him back, I ne ver mentioned the lump." And so he called him and he came back in and he said to her, "Oh, so you're another one of these women that's got cancer, huh?" And just kind of laughed- "Or think they've got cancer." And then when he examined her, he said, "Well, you know, I am a little apprehensive about this." And he said, "Just as soon as you're able,"- they made you stay in bed about ten days those days, instead of gettin' up in an hour or two- he said, "Just as soon as you're up, come in to my office, 'cause I want to make further examination."
SS: This was Foster?
DG: No, this wasn't Foster.
SS: This wasn't Foster.
DG: No, no, this wasn't Foster.
EG: An M.D.
DG: It wasn't Foster, yet, at that time. But she didn't go right in. Bythat time— I just don't remember just what- she said something about and her husband told her she was kind of imaginative. She got kind of mad, and she though, oh, well, she'd had a life- she was the second or third wife- and he had buried one woman with cancer, so she said, "I just thought well, if he feels that way,she just got kinda mad and kinda stubborn. And so it went on and she didn't go in right away; went on for a few weeks.
SS: Was he mad at her because- he was mad at her for—?
DG: Well, I don't know as he was mad at her, but he just made some remarkabout maybe she was imagining more, or something, you know, and made her sore. So that when she finally did go to the doctor, why he said to her, he said, "Well, I can't be sure what this is til it's taken out and tested," but he said, "I'm very concerned," He said, "I would like to operate immediately." And she said, "Oh, I don't know that I want this operation." You know, just that quick, she said, "I would like to see if I could get in touch with Foster." She'd heard and knew him, you know, around this country. And she said, "Could I wait long enough, or could I go and see them?" He said, "You go see 'em, if you know where they are." And all like that, but he said, "Whatever you do, don't put it off. Do it immediately." Well by the time she wrote up here to know where they was, and time she got Foster- one of the boys, the old man was gone- she got him traced down, when she found one of 'em, and he was in Portland not far from Beaverton. Not far from where she was at, and when she got him traced down it was about six weeks later. So, when she got to him, why he said, "Well, I've got to make a bunch of tests before I can be sure." So then it was about three weeks more before he got all of his testt^done, and then he told her, "It's definitely. And he said, "I could put a burner on and take it off if it hadn't of gone into your glands." But he said, "It's gone in already. Gone into your glands, and you never in the world could stand the pain, that you'd have to endure." But he said, "Had you," You know, "if they'd gofin touch immediately, right at first," he thought he could have did some thing for her. She lasted a year, but she left what? Four? Five? kids.
EG: Five kids.
DG: And her baby was a year old.
SS: It was too late to have any operation by that time?
DG: Too late by time for^surgery to do any good. And then by the time shedied, of course, it had gone all over her, you know. She was only forty years old.
SS: You know, speaking about Foster, there was a story that I heard thatkids, oh, people around Juliaetta used to think that they would see, after Foster moved down to Clarkston from here; looking at the house they would see the figure of— What have you heard about that?
DG: We heard about that, that it was a haunted house, and it was a nurse,supposed to be, kind of a nurse that would come out, on the porch up there, that they would see.
EG: I don't know what it is- I think it's supposed to be seen from MaicieNye's house up here, up to the house up there now where Miller lives, Floyd Miller.
DG: Yeah, but I haven't heard anything about it in later years.
SS: What I'm talking about was , what the story was back then. Now, I'veheard a couple of different stories. I don't know which one might be the one that people told. But I heard one, there was a nurse that kil led a baby or something up there, and she was standing in the window. And the other story I heard was that it was Foster's wife, a figure of her standing in the window up there.
DG: I don't know, I only heard that there would be something that would comeout kinda at the door or porch or something that looked kinda like a nurse would appear at different times. That's the only one that I have heard. I never took much stock in it anyway. (Chuckles) But, yet I've heard it, you know.
EG: I've heard that, but I don't know how that there ghost stuff like that-I wouldn't believe there was such a thing if I seen it!
SS: Did you ever hear ghost stories back in the South?
EG: (Laughs) Oh, yes, yes.
SS: Would you tell me a little bit of what you heard from back there? I'mnot saying you believe in it or not, I'm just wondering what you heard.
EG: Well, the things that— the remedies for being bewitched. Now, if youhad your cream—if your cream wouldn't churn, it was bewitched. So, the thing to do to get that cream to churn was to take a sickle- one of these little hand sickles, take that and heat it red hot, and put that down in your milk and that would kill the ghost and your milk would churn. That was the way to get your milk to churn.
DG: I think people were kind of- quite a few of 'em were awful superstitious.
EG: Oh, yeah. was, back in them days lots of superstitious people.Then it was bad luck to sweep down a spiderweb, a cobweb they called 'em, big cobweb up in the house, you broke one of them to keep from havin' bad luck, you was supposed to take so many yards of yarn, that you'd wove, you know, yarn, and take that there and stand in front of the fire place and throw it over your left shoulder into the fire and burn that yarn, stop the bad luck from breaking that spiderweb. Yeah.
DG: Now I had some relatives—
EG: Oh, her- now then I remember the right one- that was a ghost story, itwas her uncle. He believed in witches. So his ox was sick and he went to the witchdoctor, they had one back there, went to him to find out what to do for his ox. Well during the time the old man was gone the ox got sick and the boys put him in the barn— or he got in the corn, and the boys put him in the barn. The witch doctor told the old man to come home and draw the picture of an ugly man on the barn door, and then get up before sunup in the morning and not say anything to any body and shoot that picture with a silver bullet. That would break the spell on the ox. Well the boys had put the ox in there and he heerd the old man acomin' and he come with his head up to the door to be let out to pasture and the old man he shot the ugly picture on his door and he heard a racket in the barn and went in and went in and looked and he'd shot the old ox right between the eyes. Killed him dead! (Chuckles)
DG: And there was a woman back there that they thought was a witch. OldLiz Deever—
EG: Liz Deever, yeah, they always said she was a witch. Jim Deever's herhusband. Her husband was a wizard, too. And there was one young feller wanted him to teach him how to be a wizard. Yeah, he teach him, but he says, "The first thing you go to be a wizard, you've gotta sell your self to the devil." Well, he didn't want to do that. So, Doc Young, he believed that Jim was a witch, or a wizard, and my dad and Old Jim Deevers they used to get together and make up stories to tell Young. My dad; they fixed it up, they told Old Doc Young that he was to go up Tot son's Branch, a creek, a little creek they had back there called Totson's Branch, he'd go up Totson's Branch and many a time with a gun and never see a thing to shoot at. Well, he thought Old Jim had bewitched him, that was the reason of it. Well, anybody that goes out ahuntin', you may go for a month and not see a thing.
EG: acomin' this way, and in a certain place would turn right back andgo the other way. Well, it did. But that was the end of the ridge. It come down one side- the ridge was here, went right back up the other side of the ridge. It didn't keep agoin' straight. Then John he went out and shot a fox, shot at one, and Jim Deevers took crank colic that same day. And he'd shot at that fox with a silver bullet, he thought "I almost killed Old Jim." (Chuckles) He thought Old Jim was the fox, you know, and he thought he'd hit him and caused him to have that belly ache! (Chuckles)
SS: Well, why did they think she was a witch? This was his wife?
EG: Yeah, she was his wife. Oh, I don't know.
DG: I guess a lot of things she told kind of half way happened orand then they'd be scared to death.
SS: They'd be scared to death by what she said?
DG: Yeah. Well, I can remember as a kid, and then even after we come outhere where the Virginia folks was, that Liz Deevers, Liz Deevers, all Liz Deevers- and they always called her the witch. As for ghosts, I don't remember hearing talk so much about ghosts.
EG: My brother skeered some people one time with that ghost stuff. Hesneaked up on top of their house, and took a rope and tied it around a brick and knocked it down their chimney, you know, and had it a bump ing and a scrapin' around in there, and they was scared and they all run outdoors, and theyxoutside before he got his rope out, he didn't get his rope off and get off of there, but they got out before he got offa the house!
SS: It's funny, I've never heard of a wizard before. I mean I've heardthe word wizard; I've heard a lot about witches, but I didn't know that they had husbands that were wizards.
DG: Well, what I think; the witch and the wizard that would be the husbandand the wife, huh?
EG: Well, they don't have to be a wife, but then he's a man witch.
DG: A wizard was a man witch.
SS: Do you think he thought he was? Or do you think he never thought he was?
EG: I don't think so. I don't know. They just got that— Well, you knowthey used to burn people— the English used to burn people; witches. That there, what was her name? That great general that led the French?
SS: Joan of Arc?
EG: Joan of Arc. You know they burnt her for a witch. And then over inthe Colonies, I think they burnt some witches there. Now, that's some thing the Indians - they wftfe, terrible people, they burnt people at the stake; but there was our white men that burnt witches. Take somebody they didn't like and thought had done queer things and they'd burn 'em. They was just as bad as the Indians.
DG: Have you ever heard anything about these Devil-worshippers? There was ascare in here a while about them.
SS: Is this recent? Recently?
DG: Oh, a year or two ago.
EG: They got abutcherin' cattle, and taking some of the insides out of 'em.
DG: Well, wasn't it up toward Winchester or someplace they got somethingstrung up across the road and Nto stop a car? Anyway, I know that there was scare enough about it that there was a lot of people said that Doug Johns, he got real disturbed about 'em, you know. And he told his mother, said, "If you're ever going like to Lewiston or drivin' somewhere and you see a bunch crossin' the road holdin' hands, you know, they just come up over a bank or just walk across the road and hold hands and just stand there for the car to come, why," he said, "just Pour on the gas and go right on." Said, "If you hit one, it's alright, you're still able to go. Then they'll leave. If you kill one of 'em, then they say, they'll skin that one out; person out, and they'll go on. But otherwise they might take you, you know, if they get you stopped or anything, because it's asacrifice or something that they do." They said if you kill one of their own, you know, just that way, then they'll go on some other place. Ayear or two ago there was quite abit said about it, and there was supposed to have been— it was up near Coeur d'Alene,^think it was, that Virgil told me that was sup posed to really been some of 'em there.
I've heard that. Coeur d'Alene was a place where that was going on.And then we heard once that there was toward Winchester^one time.
SS: I was going to ask. you; were there things like signs for getting marriedWhy you would know who you might marry? I've heard that sort of thing.
DG: in the house, why that meant somebody was going to die, if it fluttered in your window.
EG: Oh, yea h, that was a woman- a girl I had up there at Tekean that wassuperstitious. I had her come and work for me a few days, and a dog a howlin1 was a sign of bad luck or death or something thataway. And if a bird come and fluttered in your window. Well, I had an apple tree
G: Bring a hoe in the house
SS: Bring a hoe in the house?
DG: Yeah, that's bad luck.
EG: Bad luck to bring a hoe in the house.
SS: You had an apple tree?Had an apple tree set out there a ways and a bluebird would get in that apple tree and it could see its reflection in the window, and boy, it would come right up there and it would just have a great time then there in that window til it would get tired and go back to the tree a while. Sit there a while and see that reflection again and it would come back. Why, that was a sign of death. She told my wife that stuff and if I'd a knowed she had them foolish ideas in the head I sure wouldn't a had her on the place. But they was superstitious.
SS: Where did she come from?
EG: They was Norwegians.
DB: And they happened to live up there, and they was a fine family. She wasa lovely girl. An awfully nice person but very superstitious. She had a crippled sister, something happened and the sister was crippled, I can't remember now just what-
EG: She jumped off— they turned the wagon over and the old man he was Norwegian, he talked awful broken, too. He was a preacher. I don't know how he ever got anybody to understand him when he preached.. This girl's name was Ruth and he called her Rute. Said he turned the wagon over and he says, "I yumped and Rute yumped, but Rute didn't jump far enough." She got hurt bad when he turned the wagon over.
DG: I can't remember what they thought all this happened, but they had somesuperstition.
Yeah, about why it happened. And so, Lillian— wasn't that her name?
Why, she would tell me about that, you know, that that was the cause, of Ruth,I can't just remember what, some superstition. And when that bird come why, she'd say— oh, she didn't like it. 'Course he'd be out working, he couldn't stay in the house all time, and the kids was little and there I was, sick. And so, of course I figured that my folks down here had smallpox pretty bad at the time, and every time after she'd get through with all her worries and our telephone would ring, why, I was scared for anybody to answer it, I figured it'd be some of my folks was gone or else I was gonna die or something because they had me in bed with a icepack on my heart there for three weeks. And I don't know whether it was necessary or not, and then the dog howlin'. They took me to the hospital, I wasn't doin' very good, and so the doctor decided they should take me to the hospital. They took me in the night, then the doctor up there. And we went by his brother's and left the oldest youngster, she was about three and we had the baby with us, Peggy, the second^ And when we was gettin' ready to leave why, of course everybody started out and the dog followed us a ways just ahowlin' and a howlin', and oh, I was scared, I thought, well, that's the last time I'd ever see that place. But now then I could see how silly it was, he was just upset because everybody was agoin' and he couldn't go along. And I don't suppose I'd believe in anything anymore if it was true, but there while I was sick and kind of upset anyway, you know, so many things kinda happenin', why I can almost be superstitious.
EG: She got down to weighing a hundred and fifteen pounds.
DG: And I^weigh a hundred and eighty now. But a hundred and fifteen waspretty thin.
So you two didn't really put much stock in superstitions, yourselves?
Did you court for very long before you got married?
Did you court very l#ng before you got married?
(Chuckles) I guess you'd call it that way. She was just-I was a kid and he was- (Chuckles)
Well, I was twenty years old and I bought me a top buggy, and my cousinwas agoin' to go away, she was fourteen and so was she, and so she went up there to my cousin's, and my cousin told me she wanted me to take her buggy ridin' before she went away, and she was goin' in just two or three days. So Sunday my brother's wife was down there and I had to take the top rig up to take the whole family up to Sunday School, and comin' back then, why, Ihad to get around to give my cousin a buggy ride, so my Cou sin Joe and his sister and Dixie, they come down in their rig to our place and I unhooked from the hack and hooked onto the buggy and the four of us come on down, brought her down home. And my cousin he was a- stutter ed and he says, "You-u-u adarn fool if you don't take Dixie up to Sun day School next Sunday." Well, Iwas twenty years old, a big bashful guy and then her a little kid- just practically a kid that way- He's seven years older than I am. Isaid, "Well, I've got my consent," Isays, "how is it with you?" 'oh, it'd be alright So the next Sunday Icome and got her; took her up— they had a picnic that Sunday and the next Sunday I took her and then I left the country, up in the hills for quite a while. And then somehow or other, why, something come up and we went together a few times again. He had another girl for a while. Kept fofclin' around that way, and I don't know, things just seemed to happen. Igot acquainted with aschool marm that Iwas gonna have abig time with that winter and I got all crippled up, and I couldn't do that. So, as fur as Icould get, when Igot too tired of stayin' home, was to walk amile over to Wilson's where she was* And everything just throwed us together that way til—
SS: How did you get crippled up?
EG: Turned a wagon over.
DG: Little poles on it, threThim and-
EG: Me and my cousin was comin' down the hill with a load of poles to builda corral on the place down there in Catholic Gulch, and we come on the top of a little grade up here between here and Kendrick, there was a fella met us there with a car: four horse team; and he had to back up to get out of the way and every time he'd try to back up he'd kill the aigine. That was better'n sixty years ago, you know. And finally, after about ten minutes there in the lights of that car, I took my lead team off and pulled him out of the way and then put 'em back on and we come down the grade, got just pretty near the foot of the grade and we went over the grade and just turned the wagon upsidedown. Caught my cousin under it, and I might have been knocked out for a while, I don't know, but when Icome to Iwas clear minded, so Iwent alookin' for my cousin and I found him under that load of poles. They was a big rock there, and he was squeezed til he couldn't holler, but there wasn't a bone broke in him.
DG: That rock held the load.Held the load up, you know, so it didn't break a bone in him. Didn't we hurt him any. Well, he was numb when^ got him out of there, so Igot on-my wheel team was layin' down, they was throwed out of the road and layin' down and the leaders was up in the road. Iwent up and got on one of 'em, and started out with the other and so I took the lines off and unhooked the one I was on and just turned the other'n loose in the road with the eveners, and went down the road ahollerin* for help. And there was a fella over there across the river where they've got that farm now; he answered me and I told him, so he phoned around and in a little while there was five men there to help. Well that load of poles was tightened with a springpole up over a pole, you know, right across there and ends with that pole and that there long pole had two them on there, and that was turned up and them was under the bottom
EG: so you know them chains was tight. No way agettin' 'em loose. I hada knife with a plier on it but my thumb here was numb, I couldn't use it, and I give it to somebody else but they couldn't use it to cut a wire link that was in there, but the other chain was good. So finally I said, "Is there anybody around here got an axe?" I, with a tight chain you could chop it with an axe, and that was the only— Another fella says, "Old Man Leland's got an axe." The other one says, "I'll go get it." And he went up on the road and walked around three head of horses and walked down there three quarters of a mile— about three quarters down and back to Leland's- went afoot and got the axe. Another fella come and brought my other horse back, and one fella said that he seen him go by, that'd he steer the folks if he went on home when he passed him. " Another one come though and brought him back up. I says, "He's eleven miles from home." "Well," he says, "he'll be there pretty soon if he keeps going they way he passed me." He brought the horse back, and they got up there-
DG: And his Uncle Joe lived-
EG: And they got up there with that axe and just one lick apiece and themchains just flew. And so then, they got the doctor, he come up in his car and brought us down here to this place over here; my uncle was there. We stayed over night. Well, the fella rode down hill and my cousin up, comin' down here and we got down here, why he says, "I can walk." And me and this guy looked at each other, you know and grinned, and he just hopped out of the car and into the house he went. Well, I started to get out and I'd been^oin' up there and around just doin' as much as anybody, and perfectly clear of mind; I told 'em to get the axe to chop the chains, and practically everything that was done, I told 'em what to do. I was perfectly clear of mind, but I rode in that car down from up there to here, and when I started to get out of that car, and if somebody'd split me from my shoulder blade to the hip bone with an old dull knife, it wouldn't a hurt a bit worse. Then a fella he come and tried to help me, boy, that was worse yet. There was no way for me to get outta there only wiggle out on my own. I got out; got up to the house. Two weeks that I couldn't pick up a toothpick with this hand here. There wasn't nothin broke but ligaments just all busted up.
SS: Was it all in your hand and your arm?
EG: My hand here was thataway and then my back. I lost three months of thatwinter there.
DG: It throwed him out in a bunch of rocks. He sftt on a highchair whenhe could kinda walk, but he couldn't set and get up. And when he'd come to visit me, why, if there was the highest chair of the kids' highchair there, why, that's what he'd sit on. You know, he could just bend. But he was crippled up for quite a—
You were really young at that point when you were going together.Yeah, you know, it seemed like an awful difference— don't seem bad now but when we were in school— see, when I was eight, why, he was fifteen. And there were some fifteen, sixteen year old girls and he was having a big time with them, you know, and here I was a little towhead with braids running around there.
A lot of funny things like that happens and a fella don't know why, butthey fall for them little girls.
DG: Then one time it was rainy and couldn't be outside, and the big kids,of course would get together and get 'em some books or be talkin' or something and the little kids would hang around, and they had a book of riddles and rhymes and they was agigglin' and areadin' and there was another grown boy or two and two or three girls and so on, and they was a readin', and I was pretty timid then, I didn't do much talkin' and kinda bashful, and I was standin' listenin' at 'em, and they read over "Needles and pins, needles and pins, when a man marries his troubles begins." And he's laughed about that so much, you know, and I didn't even remember it.
EG: Well, Bill Kinzer picked at the kids a lot more than what I did, thelittle kids there. And she come over there and she said, "You should never, get married, Edl, I told him,
DG: Said I just looked at him and "You should never get married!" k I guessI just wanted him to wait and that seems funny when you think about it.
SS: Wait a minute, you played needles and pins? How did that work?
EG: Little verse, see, that we had in the book, "Needles and pins, needlesand pins-"
SS: How did you figure it meant you?
EG: Well, that was her, and she told me, "You'd better never get married, ED."
DG: Just a bunch of littlefkids hanging around there, and I was always backward and never talked up much, and that's what they all noticed, but hwen they read that, said I just looked up, "Better never get married, Ed!" (Chuckles)
SS: Did you feel that you were— now how old were you when you got married?
DG: I was almost seventeen! (Laughter)
SS: You were almost seventeen?
DG: (Laughter) I was married the 24th of December, and I was seventeen the 25th ofFebruary. So I married young.
SS: Did you feel at all at the time that you were really young to get married?Or did you feel like you were ready for it? Marriage?
DG: Well, I don't know, I suppose I was young. I think that if I could startout all over again, I'd marry the same guy. But at the same time, why, I might want to be a little bit older. Maybe I could have managed a little better or something, I don't know.
EG: Well, she was the oldest one of the family and she got to going out,you know to parties and around like that, and her stepdad he didn't think she should go so much. And him and her mother got to havin' quite a little trouble over her.
SS: Your mother stuck up for you?
DG: Mom always did, yeah. My stepdad, it was kinda funny- they never hadtold any reason to distrust me, I'd always git home when they me and anything, but let a bunch come in, young kids, and he'd set and tell about all the times he went to the parties, and how they had a bottle of whiskey and they'd get some old maids drunk and all these things, you know, and all the big times and then if I went out with the neighbors to a party in the neighborhood, why, then it was all wrong. But I was always pretty good. Mom always played ball with me, you know, andk I'd listen and she'd let me go, but I'd have to be home at least by twelve, or ten or eleven. I don't know there might been a time or two I didn't get to go, but most of the time I'd go. But a lot of the time, why,— I had a very good friend and she had an uncle that was quite a lot older than any of us, and he played the banjo. He'd take his banjo and go and play. And we'd just go around the neighborhood to the different houses, you know, and so he would come with Harriet and they'd get me a lot of times you know so I could go.
SS: Would it be dances? Is that what it would be?
DG: Well, once in a while some of 'em would two-step or waltz a little bit,and they'd have- what you call 'em? Where they call 'em. Square dances,.
EG: Quadrille? Square dance.
DG: They'd square dance some. And a lot of times just games or taffy pull.They make taffy. We had a lot of fun at taffy pulls. Pretty near every party they had a taffy pull.
SS: What kind of games?
DG: Oh they'd have -, you know and if you didn't answer why-
EG: Spin-the-Platter, and I don't know.
DG: you know. Playing Post Office and all them kissin' games.
EG: They was one family come in there one time, that they had a lot of funthe winter that they run the parties there. They had the most kissin' games. People don't think nothin' about it, but some girls- we went one to have one place. some of the girls wouldn't go and it made this fella mad. He said, "If they was out in the dark, they'd kiss." But just to play a game, they wouldn't do nothin' like that. They had some funny games; one of 'em was kiss both sides of the watch. Take a man's watch, you know, the chain, put a girl and a boy up there and they'd have to kiss both sides of that watch. Hang it right down over their mouths, and they was supposed to kiss both sides of that watch. Well just as they went to kiss the watch, why, (Chuckles) you'd jerk the watch up, you know, out of the way. And then they'd make a Dutch wagonwheel. That was quite a thing. Two would take a handkerchief, hold each end this way and then two more across it this way, and they'd get everybody in the crowd up there with a handkerchief across that there-
DG: They usually had men's handkerchiefs, big handkerchiefs, and they'd take'em—
EG: Then the top one, the top handkerchief, they had to go under there andcross- change places, and they was supposed to kiss as they passed under there, and then they had to come back over there. Well, if they went over on this side of the handkerchief, thisaway, if they come back on that side they was alright, but if they happend to come back, you know on this side, they twisted the handkerchief, then they had to go back agin and every time they twisted the handkerchief, they was supposed to kiss as they went under there. And then, of course, when they got the handker chief straight, why, then them two was done and the next two come down and tried their luck that way.(Both Dixie and Ed were talking, and Dixie's voice was largely lost)
DG: Then they'd look at the stars, sometimes, that was to redeem somethingthat you had—
Oh, yeah, they had things to redeem, and some would look at the stars-And'hold it up and you'd look through that and somebody'd pour water down
DG: it, you know, into your face
EG: Sometimes they'd have to bring somebody a bucket of water to play— adrink of water to pay for . One time I was at a party and I had to bring a young lady a drink of water to pay for a forfeit. I went and brought the bucket, and she drank out of it. When I held it up for her to drink, she says, "Don't pour this." I says, "I won't." I wouldn't a poured it on her, but she was afraid I would. I give her a drink out of the bucket.
Used to have quite a lot of fun. And then back to the gettin' married;of course, like most everybody seventeen, sixteen, you think you're pretty smart anyway, well, I thought it was alright. But, there was a lot of things that if I'd been a little older, I could have did better. But then, there was a lot of things that I already had did, you know, with the housework and the experience with children and the washing and cookin' and a lot of things, why I was just learning, you know to manage on what we had to do with and so on. And we got along pretty good.
SS: You probably didn't mind getting out of the house where you'd been broughtup?
No. There was quite a bit of contention, as I began to grow up. My stepdad in his own way, in some ways was quite good to me, but it seems like as I grew older, he had a lot of dreams or ideas that he would like for me to gone on to school. And then he began to get the idea, I think the part of it would be^that sooner or later I was gonna be gone, and he was going to miss me at home. And he beg^n to find pretty much fault with any boyfriends that I had. And, of course, that didn't help mat ters any. The first one that I had, that I went with, why, they didn't care much about him, but he treated me fine what little time I went with him, and my stepdad was gonna just put a stop to that right now, and Mom said, "Just leave her alone, I think she'll find it out for herself We'll get further by just lettin' her alone." Well, it wasn't too long til I didn't want anything more to do with him. What did he think of Ed at first? Well, Ed used to stay with him and bafch with him. Oh, he was just like a brother. Real pally until after Ed and I began to pay a lot of attention to each other-
Well, I had a good buggy and team and when we went someplace, of course,that was the way she got to go, was because I had a team. Well the Ostells, they lived across the Potlatch, but they had a hack, and they couldn't get out with a team, but I could cake *buggy and go up to Arrow there and they'd bring the hack- bring it across the railroad bridge, pull it across by hand and hook my team onto it and we'd go anywhere we wanted to. One night Iwent up there with the buggy rain men come and eat there at Arrow at the store and Ihappened to stop my buggy right in their trail where they come from the train to go over there, so when I come back my buggy was turned over, laying down on the side. I didn t see why anybody d done that. I thought Old Chris maybe or some of 'em had done that and I asked him about it. "No," he says, "the train men done it," he says, "you left it in their trail that they come down— the way they come down to the store.and they just turned it over when they come it." So that was the reason it was turned over. We went from there on up to Deary in Ostell's hack and back that fur, and then took the buggy. But that's what made the old man mad was because I had the conveyance, you know, and she couldn't awent a lot of times if it hadn't abeen for the conveyances I furnished.
SS: And he didn't want her to go.
EG: He didn't want her to go. And then one big mistake I made there abouthim— They had a dance up at a place up the canyon there, there was no body living at the place at that time and a fella had it rented, and it was a pretty good house, but it was up there, and so ~ Jamison, he come home from school and told me about it, and wanted to go. I says, "I haven't got no girl," and didn't know nothin' about it in time to ask Dixie to go with me, so I said, "I don't think I'll go." Then I said, 'I'll have some fun there watching the girls pull their rubbers off going up in that mud." But that night it wasn't muddy up there. But Gilbert and I started out together. He was going to get the Ostell girl, pick her up at Arrow, and as we went by why, Jim Ostell he'd come over there and got Delia Jamison in the canyon there and they was going up. I hadn't aimed to stop at Wilsons because I had no date. "Well," they said, "You'd better go up and ask Dixie to go." "Guess it won't do no harm to ask her.' Well, when I got up there, why, |arry Ervin and Harriet was there at Wilsons, that was the girl that Gilbert was going to meet, she was there at Wilsons and Dixie was all ready to go. So I hadn't asked her; she'd a went if I hadn't a But the old man didn't know that I didn't have a date, so he told my brother, my preacher brother, about me atakin' her to aoldj house for adance, when Ididn't have any idea she was going, and I didn't have anything to do with the girls til me and Harry went together and we started up the hill. And then the girls, they got to teasing about what the school marm had said about me; If I'd just knew what she'd said. Then they wouldn't tell me. I don't think she'd said anything, they was making up something.
DG: Oh, she might of. Holly used to say quite a bit.
DG: Holly used to say quite a bit.
EG: Well, I don't know whether you'd heard anything or whether you hadn't,or anything. But, anyway, you wouldn't tell me and there was a steep grade along there, and I told 'em, "If you don't tell me, I'll shove you over the grade!" And I'd grab the two of 'em and take 'em over the edge of the road and from there on up, why- went on up with the girls. I I didn't know she was to be home by ten o'clock.
DG: No, it's twelve.
DG: I was to be home £v twelve.
EG: Oh, well, whatever it was, I didn't know anything about it, till Harrycome around and got Harriet. He says, "You know, Dixie's supposed to be at a certain time."
DG: Well, I asked Harriet to go because, them days and everything, prettyparticular what people thought about your reputation, and I knew that if I was gonna get to go again, and if Mom told me to be home by twelve, I better be home by twelve. Well, there was married couples there, you know so, a lot of 'em was havin' a good time yet and I had to leave by eleven thirty to be home by twelve. And so, nobody said anything about break ing up or going and I knew I had to go. I wasn't much going to go by it myself or anything, and so I went and asked Harr I said, "I don't like to do this, but," I said, "I don't want to go alone." He said, "Well, go ask Ed." I said, "Well, the folks would have a fit if they kn^w^if the dance or the party was still going and Ed and I took off by oursel ves."
EG: Well, the first thing I knowed about it was Harriet said that-
DG: So, I asked her if she would mind coming and she was kind enough and goodenough that her and her uncle come with Ed and I. And so, when I got home, why, my dad didn't happen to hear me come in, I went in very quiet ly. And so, he happened to wake up and he said something to Mom about Dixie hadn't got home and Mom said, "Well, she's here. She's been here in bed quite a while." And he lit the lamp and come to look to see if I was there, and I was. Not braggin' on myself or anything like that, but then, I always tried to get home and io, especially, what Mom told me to.
SS: Did he give you a hard time about that later?
DG: No, no, he didn't say anything. He proved to himself, of course, thatI come home and gone to bed. And she told me I could go, you know and everything. It wasn't just every time that he'd have a spell about it, but^now and then that he would get real disturbed about my going and I think that the older I got— as I grew older and looked back on it, I think that the idea was that he hated the idea when I did leave. And then when he found out I was going to get married; well I had kinda of threatenedK somewhere and try to work. I didn't really want to stay at home. And he was going to see that I didn't get married til I was eighteen. But he had never adopted me and so, therefore, he didn't have any legal right as to what Idid or didn't do. And so ,he couldn't do much about It. And it wasn't that he disliked Ed- I've seen alot of young fellers in my time, you know, they wasn't so young, but, they was kinda rounders in their day. And when their famil ies growed up, especially their daughters, they was always suspicious of 'em and awful particular. And that's the way it went. Like te was tel ling about getting the old maids drunk and getting out and having quite a time when he was young and all that, well, when his stepdaughter growed she was just as wild as the women he used to chase, and he didn't want that.
Did you look up to Ed alot? He was so much older than you- six, sevenyears. Did you find yourself looking up to him like he was abig brother or something like that?
I don't really know or think so much about it, Ijust began to like himreal well. I had plenty of (both are talking at the same time) but I didn't have any trouble, as far as that a havin' boy friends. Two or three of his cousins had tried to go with me, Idon't know, there was Mil Kimberling and there was guys quite abit older even than was older than you, wasn't he?
Oh, yeah. Well, Iused to take her when she was akid that way, becauseI had the outfit.
And Fred Walter. But there were several even older ones that asked me,you know, to go with 'em. Well, Iknew that they were enough older, that either one of 'em, Iknew the guys and Iliked 'em alright, but I'd say, "Oh, gee, Ican't date you because the folks would just never stand for it." There was*too much difference in the age that way. But for no older than I was and marryin' youn I started out with the boys when I was thirteen, and there in about four years, I had lots of chances.
SS: Was that true for your girl friends as well? Were they going out aboutolder the same age as you started? Were they going with the boys?
DG: Well, most of my real close girl friends was— Harriet wasn't too mucholder; a year, maybe.
EG: Delia was the one that was a couple of years older than you.
DG: The others wasn't too much, you know; Bert and Mae and them - wasn'ttoo much difference in the ages. And the rest of 'em— When he was talking about taking us for a buggy ride, why, her and I were both born in 1900. She was born the second of February and me the twenty-fifth. And she was a fairly good looking girl and quite a sporty girl and she just had all kinds of boyfriends.
EG: There was one time we started up to literary with the buggy I and youthat I was to take a couple of the Ostells along. So, I give Gilbert Jamison a saddle horse to ride up to literary so we wouldn't have so many- only four in the buggy. And we got up to Arrow, why they was a girl there, she must a weighed a hundred and eighty, there from Montana. She used to live here and she come up there, so we got up there, why, there she was; three girls and Jim Ostell and myself and Gilbert. There was that many of us in the top buggy and the saddle horse. (Chuckles) So, me and this big Montana girl we got in the seat and Delia set on her lap and Dixie set on mine and Harriet set on their two nees in the middle out in front and drove the team. And Jim and Gilbert both rode the saddlehorse. We had that buggy full that time! (Chuckles) And we got up there, there was one place on the road was cold and the road was froze over with ice, slick, too, but I had a sharpshod team, and they was some brush down below the road and as we went over that ice there them brush raked the side of that rig and I knowed that that was too fur down there, and I told the girl, I said, "Pull the upper line." (Chuckles) I got scared, but, boy I could just feel my head gratin' on the rocks down below there! I knowed when them ' was arakin' that buggy that- Well, there must have been ice there that held it up level, because they was way down below the road, and rakin' the side of that buggy.
DG: They had lots of literariesT and one time we walked— what was it? Aboutfive miles or so, we walked up to literary and back.
EG: Yeah, I wasn't along that night.
DG: Well, that's how far it was. Wasn't it?
SS: Where was it that you had literaries? School?
EG: Where this concrete schoolhouse is up here. Down here above Johnson's.
DG: Right down here above Johnson's place.
SS: Pilot Rock? Pilot Rock. That's where it was. That's where we had most of thelit eraries. Pilot Rock. We'd have debates. We'd have a lot of fun. And one time Iwas on the debate team, and Iforget whojelse it was, and it was as to whether concrete or wood would work the best for railroad ties. You know, which would be the better. Sometimes there'd be sensible things and sometimes just silly things that'd come up. And he had an older bro ther, Levi, and he was real good at debating and the things that he got in on. And a lot of times they'd have some real good—
Well, they had Dan Harbock and Marion and Levi and Grover was awful good.I never was much good.
Sometimes they'd have kinda little programs. Little skits or songs, youknow.
Sometimes they'd have somebody say speeches, or sometimes sing or something.
SS: Would they have party games, too?
EG: Well, I don?.t believe they had so much party games.
SS: Mock trial?
EG: Yeah. One time we had—One time we had one up there; they had me arrested forbeatin' up on a fella for stealing my sister-in-law's affection. They brought that fel la in there with aarm bandaged up and an eye black, and say, he was a badly crippled up fella. I'd beat him up for stealing my sister-inlaw's affection. And Ihad to have alawyer and then you had to be sworn in. Fred Albright, he was the clerk and he had to swear 'em in. And you had to hold up your right hand and solemnly swear that everything that you told was alie and nothing but alie, would ease your conscience! (Chuckles) That's the way you took the oath.
SS: Would ease your conscience?
SS: And then they put on a trial?
Yeah. They'd have to tell, you know- Well, they accused me of beatin'this feller up and they had him up there, and Isaid, "No, it wasn't me at all. Ihadn't touched Mm." He says,"The Old Man, the Old Man Kim berling had beat him up. It wasn't me." (Chuckles) Yes, had quite a tlmel^Th" witness, you know, one would say he was there and another say he wasn't. Idon't know where Iwas that night, Iwasn't around there. Iwasn't supposed to be there, Iwas off somewhere else, as a witness, you know, telling Iwasn't around that place at all that night, Iwas somewhere else; regular horse thief story, you know.
They had one at Arrow one time- They had one at Arrow; they had my brother arrestedfor stealing afella's
EG: Not much party games. Sometimes they'd have amock trial.Plays, or just kind of a funny recitation
DG: The guy really had hogs any everything, you know. They made a prettygood trial out of that, though, it wasn't so much silliness. But it was a lot of fun, a lot of things that went on, you know.
SS: Levi studied law, eh? He was pretty good with the words?
EG: Oh, yeah.
DG: And good at writing. He wrote a beautiful hand. He was Al Groseclose'sfather, and Jean Groseclose's dad.
EG: After the flu scare in 1800 there never has been a literary since organized.
EG: When that big flue epidemic went through and killed so many people,why they stopped all gatherings. Church and everything, you know. They never— nobody could have any gathering of any kind for quite a while there to stomp out that flu.
SS: How bad did that hit around where you lived?
EG: Well, it hit pretty bad. I had it when my second child—
DG: Don't know too many that really died, but we know of some that come neardying.
EG: When I got it they'd found out what to do. They used to take aspirin tokeep your fever down and take something to keep your bowels well open.
DG: And you had to stay absolutely in bed.You had to keep yourself cleaned out and keep temperature down. And we got to doing that, why they didn't lose many patients after that. But doctors didn't know what to do on the start and they lost a lot of people. We had a woman got sick across the river down there and the river
EG: was high, and she had the flu and the doctors so busy he couldn'tget one to come; she was awful sick. So her husband come over and5he says, "She can't take oil nor she can't take salts," he says, "I don't know what to give her." "Well," Isays, "get her some Syrup of Figs." So I went up to Kendrick to the drugstore- believe it was Kendrick I went to- Kendrick or Juliaetta anyway. I got her a bottle of Syrup of Figs and some aspirin; brought it back and he come across and got it; took it over there and she come out of it alright.
SS: Why did you figure that?
Why did you figure Syrup of Figs?
Well that was kind of a laxative.
That was a laxative, and it was something good tasting; kids liked totake that. It was an awful good laxative. I used to keep it on hands all the time.
Did many people at Arrow get the flu? In 1918?
Well, they had it in— quite a few had it and I don't believe there wasany deaths exactly from the flu, but they had an awful time to get along. The families would all get down and one couldn't hardly get up to put a stick of wood in the stove or wait on another and somebody else'd just have to go and carry the wood in and kinda help out, because it would really knock you for a loop, you know.
You talk about flu now, but I had it that time down there, and I kepta sack of epsom salts sittin' by the bed, and I'd have such a terrible taste in my mouth, I'd reach over in that sack of salt and get in my fin ger, like that, you know, hold it in my mouth. Now them things tasted good, by the side of that nasty taste in my mouth. Idon't know how many times I filled my mouth up with salt 'fore I got so I could get around.
DG: And a lot of times, you know, they'd have the nosebleed so bad, youcouldn't hardly stop it, you know, they'd die from that. And we had one friend up at Tekean, that he had it so bad they had the doctor up there several times, and his nose would bleed, you know til they couldn't hard ly stop it. And so the doctor was there one day and told 'em- his name was Ed, too won't be here in the morning." Told his wife, you know, "You can expect him to go sometime tonight." 'Cause he was so low, you know, and they was having trouble with his nosebleeds.
EG: Somebody during the meantime told 'em to take powdered alum and snuff itup your nose.
DG: Well, when they found out-
EG: They found about that and they give him some of that; he snuffed that uphis nose and that stopped the bleeding and he come out of it all right.
DG: This neighbor or somebody had heard tell of it, you know, and they triedit and it did stop the bleeding.
EG: Well, that was one other thing that come along with the bleeding of thenose was-
DG: The next morning they called the doctor, and of course, he figured they'dcalled him, I guess, something about telling Ed was gone, but they called him and told him that he was still there, and he said, "I can't believe it." But he come out of it and lived to be what? Eighty-one years old, wasn't it?
EG: Well, he ain't been dead much over a year now, I guess. He was about ayear older'n me.
DG: Well, anyway, after they got that bleeding stopped, he was so weak, youknow, that the doctor. believe it was possible that he would live.
EG: We have what we call a sort of flu every year or so, I believe, aboutevery year, you get sick you got the flu, it's not like that was.
EG: Beside the taste in your mouth, what were the symptoms that you had?
SS: Beside that awful taste in your mouth, what were the symptoms?Well, you'd ache witfc that flu. Ache and hurt all over, you know, and then you'd have your fever and sometimes chills and then you'd go into pneumonia or have all these— It's hard to tell what you would do if you hadn't a got right in on the start, and you got to holdin' that fever down with aspirin.
SS: Was this in 1918 that you got it? Or was that later?
EG: '18. No, it was in '20 that I had it.
DG: He had it in '20, but it was in '18 Kthe epidemic, I think broke outand you know it was real bad.
SS: Did you live at Tekean for very long?
DG: About ten years.
SS: Did you finally sell out or what did you do? Why did you leave?
DG: We burned out.
EG: Burned out, is the reason I left and went down on the river, down toAnd then I didn't no crop that year. Lost the crop up there, I didn't get it harvested the year before-
DG: Bad year. Nobody had much crop.
EG: Then burnt out.
SS: How did that happen? The house burned down?
DG: Well, it was a rented house. We had a cabin; lived woodsand we'd rented this house and moved out to the settlement.
EG: It was a quarter of a mile to school.
DG: "He to school. And then the house didn't have aflue in it, it had just stovepipes that went up through, and it was a log house, and then there was a kitchen built across the side of it that was built on with lumber kinda like a leanto, you know just kinda like a shed, and a stovepipe went up through that and there was a. little attic up over it. And the people that had owned the house- there was lots of mail orders them days, you know, and parcel post- and they had this excel sior that's packed around things, and then they had little like these eighteen, twenty pound fruit boxes- and up in this little attic over the kitchen, they had that place just suffed full of those things. And Ed said one time, he said, "I'm going to clean all that out." And I said, "Well, you'd better not do it without asking." We were just renting one year at a time, you know. I said, "You'd better not without asking Mrs. Garrison about it." We'd lived there a year when we burned out. You see you'd had one good crop and you had another one in. We were in there two winters, see, and out in March the next spring. And the only thing that we can figure out— we had had breakfast and I had stacked up the dishes and then I got the girls ready to go to school; combing their hair and getting them ready, and we had the three children then, and Virgil was about three years old—
EG: Well, they had had the upper part of the attic in tRft top of the house,they'd had it full of stuff up there, but I went and took a lot of that stuff out .there, but still there were a lot of boxes up there. And this one first story of the house was logs and the next one was boards, second and they set a two-by-four on top of these logs and then boarded it up on three sides with lumber, and then built this lean-to kitchen come in thisaway, you know, and fastened onto them two-by-fours. Well, I'd heard it said that if you take horse manure and put formaldehyde on
EG: it and roll it in agroundhog hole and stuff the hole shut, it wouldkill groundJiogi!" So Ihad some formaldehyde and an old gunnysack and lots of rat holes in the cellar. So, Icut some pieces of gunnysack; put formaldehyde on 'em and shoved 'em in them rat holes and stomped em shut in the cellar. But Inever had got up over the kitchen to take any of that old stuff out of there, and just afew days after that, why, we heered a roar-
Well, there was a guy we took in, a crippled guy; the county was gonnapay us to take care of him and he- we'd moved his things, they were still stored on the front porch, and he and Ed were busy talking about something that had happened in the neighborhood, and I'd went in and got the girls ready and got 'em off to school and I'd stacked my dishes before Idid that, and then Ithought, "Wellness has talked to somebody and heard quite abit about it, I'll sit down and listen." 'Cause Ihadn't hap pened to hear about it, the two of 'em talkin' and they'd talked to some body. So Iwas alistenin', you know, to that. And, all at once I thought, "What is that?" I'd hear kind of aroar and the stove in the where we were wasn't any unusual fire. So I went in the kitchen and raised up the lid on the cookstove and the fire wa spractical ly out, you know, there was no big fire, the stove was pretty near cold. And, I thought, "Well what?" Then I could hear this roaring above my head. I couldn't see it, but all at once I realized, you know, so I screamed, you know, "The hous'e is afire!" So, of course, Jess was kinda crippled up and he just grabbed his coat and hat and got out of the way, and he took Virgil; held onto him to keep him back. Well, Ed went out and jumped up on the shed roof, told me to hand him the axe and Ihanded him the axe. Well, there was awell there, but it was I figured I'd chop a hole through the roof, you know and get water up there, but when I got up there I could hear this fire goin' up this way- you know, it was just like a stovepipe up there, and I heerd that I know there was no chance, I said, "Throw out the jumk, it's gone."
DG: You told me to get to the telephone and get-
EG: Call the neighbors.
DG: But there was a five-gallon can we always kept full of water, and thatcan that five gallon of water was what I could get to and he told me to hand him the water. Well, I picked that five-gallon can of water up in one hand and held it up higher than my head, like there was nothin' to it. He got it and that didn't do much, and he got the axe- I never chopped through because I he*rd that fire going up the wall, I
DG: knew that there was absolutely no chance to get that out.He told me to get the water, so I ran to the telephone, party line, everybody rubberin' at you, and everything, and if there was an unusual ring, why, people knowed there was something wrong.
EG: Just one long ring-
DG: I just went and give a long ring- just a crazy ring, one short ring anda long ring and a lot of jingles, and then I began to hear the receivers coming down, why, I told who Iwas and the house was on fire. Of course, a lot of people could see that lived around in sight, could see— A lot of people got there pretty soon and we got quite a few things out of the house.
SS: You got a fair bit out of the house?
EG: Not very much. We didn't get either stove. We got some bedding out.We burnt all our clothes except what we had on. I had a good saddle, I burnt that up in there. Ihad^ in there so it wouldn't mold in the winter, you know.
DG: We got the bedding, and the clock, got the clock, and I got my sewingmachine. Well, we lost things in there. But we lived— we had a won derful crop of apples and a cabbage patch and we'd had our meat- our meat burned, but lard; we had lard in the cellar and lots of canned fruit in the cellar and a big barrel of kraut. And so we lived out of that cellar because we didn't have any crop the next year, so we lived for a year out of what- and the cellar was just a little ways from the house and it was built- you know filled with sawdust and had a shake roof on it. And or something they got there it caught fire on the roof, but some of 'em took hoes,Ashovels-
EG: Snow, throwed snow on it.
DG: Well, they knocked some of the shingles off. And then the schoolhouseset up on top of the hill and they could see and they was kids about twelve fourteen, fifteen and in there, several boys come and they run in the cellar to bring out the fruit and it was in shelves and they'd just make a dash in there; just run their hands kinda- work their hands through the jars and just grab what they could, and then they'd run out, you know and just drop it in the snow. Well, he had a brother that took a sack and went in and he was asackin' up a big sackful to bring out, but by the time he got»what he could carry in the sack, why the boys, just in and out, you know, and dodging around him, had the cellar empty and they only broke two or three jars. But they wasn't takin' time, you know, for any sackin' and just dodging in and out and they really emptied that cellar.
EG: But the cellar didn't burn.
SS: Sounds like it still must have been a real setback for you.
DG: Well, the greatest blow was that— people were awful kind and good, andthey give us things, you know, give us clothes and some money and then some new materials that they happened to have, and I happend to have a sewing machine and could sew and we managed. But we got the scarlet fever right after that. So, that when we moved we was in quarantine. And we had some cows, and then some cows of my uncle's, and so we couldn't ship cream because of this scarlet fever. So we fed cream to the— we had hogs, didn't we?
EG: We churned up a lot of butter. We lost about fifty dollars on top ofeverything else with the cream.
DG: The fifty dollars worth of cream, that's all we'd a had to live on, youknow. And I had these stone crocks, and my uncles could use the butter, too, but I would churn and work it down and press it dam in these crocks and then when I'd get a crock full, why, I'd put a layer of salt about like that and you'd be surprised— we had a good cellar thereA place we moved to, and we'd put that in there and butter- we had butter for a long time. But there we were, we didn't have a dime of income and we wasn't allowed hardly to leave the place.
EG: Couldn't leave the place for a long time.
DG: Well, when the kids-
EG: We got the seven year itch; and, oh, boy!
DG: from some clothes was given to us, got the suit that he wore. And wereally had it really rugged there for a year or two.
SS: They called that the seven year itch? Is that what it's called? Or isit just called the itch?
DG: It's so hard to get rid of, that they used to call it that.
EG: I believe they called it the septicemia, the man that give me the clothes.
SS: Did he know he had it?
EG: Well, they knowed they'd had it, but didn't realiaze it was in them clothes, I guess. And I wore that suit and I got it and the rest of 'em got it from me.
DG: We really had a time.
EG: I was up there and couldn't get away and my nephew lived below, he comeup to see and I talked to him and asked me what he could do for me. I Said, "Dell, for God's sake," I says, "send me some sulfur!" (Chuckles) So he got me a big batch of sulfur and sent it up to me.
SS: Did that do it?
EG: Cleaned it up with that.
DG: Then, with our scarlet fever, though shortly after we burned out, why,the kids got sick and, well, the girls wasn't so awful sick and they didn't break out much. Well, the minute that they broke out, why, we called up the health officer, Dr. Farley at Orofino; we called him up and told him we had something and we didn't know what. We were staying at my uncle's and they had a family of children in school, too. they ought to come up and see about it. "Well," he said, — the weather was kind of bad and everything- he said, "I don't like to make a trip on the hill right now. I can't come for a few days. Just keep 'em home." You know, and everything. Well, that made us all kind of sore and so Mrs. Chilt the lady at the switchboard, and all, and Dr. Horseful was coming to Cavendish; there was a child that was awfully sick there and he was coming to Cavendish just about every day, which was four or five miles away, but it was on top of the hill, you know, and so she told Dr. Farley why don't you authorize Dr. Horseful to come over and check 'em? Well, he wouldn't do that. So, then we waited and he'd tell us— and so finally I called and told him that we were the one that rented this place down the canyon and it was time to get down there for spring work and that we were going to go. And, well, he'd be up, he'd try to be up thet^ you know in two or three days. Well by that time the girls was pretty good, but Virgil, he wasn't so sick, but he did break out, he just broke out thick, and the rash was showing on him quite a lot. And so, when we moved down, of course, we had some cows and things that we'd gathered up, you know, andAhousehold stuff people d give us and so on, and my uncle took his cows down there and kind of went in with Ed rentin' the place. And so, he had taken the cattle and his oldest boy had went along—And, was Peggy with us or was and Peggy both on the wagon?
EG: They was both on the wagon.
DG: The girls was on the wagon, I guess with my uncle and some of the stuffhad gone. And I had the hack— did you have a wagon, too?
EG: I had a wagon.
DG: And we were kinda comin' together, but I was adrivin' a hack, you know,a bunch of stuff on it. And I had Virgil all bundled up and everything. And we had to go from where my uncle lived down a lane- what? about a half a mile, wasn't it?
EG: Yeah, about a half a mile.
DG: Down to hit the road; main road, to take off down to Agatha.A And, whodid we meet, you know before we got out to the main road, here come Dr. Farley, and, of course, he stopped in the road, and he stopped and asked where we was goin', and I told him, "We told you we had to move." He says, "If you got anything contagious, you can't do that." And so, he asked questions, and I unbuttoned Virgil's coat- shirt- you know he in this wind and everything could see his chest, and he said, "Oh, my goodness, get him bundled up, get him bundled up. You can't go anywhere, you've got scarlet fever, and I can stop you. You can't go into another county and all with scarlet fever." And, I said, "Well, now, Dr. Farley, we've tried to get you to come up here or authorize another doctor, and you didn't do any of it. Now, part of our children are already gone down on down^the grade with my uncle." And, I says, "No doubt, legally, you might be able to stop us, if we got a contagious disease, but," I says, "I want to tell you some thing; we've been on the mercy of the people since we burned out here long enough. With my uncle keepin' us, and he isn't able to do that. Maybe you can stop us, but I want you to know one thing; whenever you stop us, you've got the full responsibility of us. You're gonna see that the county, or yourself or somebody takes care of us, because we tried every way to do what's right." And, I said, "You know it, and the people all on the hill know it, and they've tried, too, there's been other peo ple talk to you. Now, I don't say that you can't stop us, because maybe you can. But when you do, that's just fine, when you do, we're at your mercy. You're gonna take care of us, see that we're took care of."
EG: She s the one that done the talkin'. When he told me, I just laughed athim. Just laughed. Well, you could take it serious or you could laugh, because there you was right out in the road, and how's he gonna stop you when you was sittin' in the middle of the road? Well, then she tuckered up and^ doin' the talkin', and I didn't say nothin'.
DG: Afterward he told somebody that she'd a should never married Ed Groseclose,she should a been a lawyer!
SS: What did he do?
DG: Well, after I talked to him, you know, well, he said, "That woman shouldanever married Ed Groseclose—"
SS: No, I mean, what did he tell you to do?
He said, "Well, here, I'll give you a quarantine card. And you go straightto the place where you're movin' and you put this card up and you call Dr. Lyle," - was the health officetat Nez Perce, "you call Dr. Lyle and report your case to him." And then, he'd take charge because we'd be in another county. So we did. We come on; put the sign up and called Dr. Lyle to come up and check us. And he asked about the questions and I
DG: told him that we had this up, but that he figured that we had scarletfever and I told him how long we'd been in; tha the girls was over it, but that Virgil stilly was having it. And he said, "Well, just stay in, but, you don't go anywhere, you don't sell any ".' , you don't let your kids go to school." So the people at Agatha- there was a fella Hoskins had a store- post office was there- and we had a phone.
EG: Had one put in, we didn't have it when we first moved there.
EG: Well, we could call up and he would put things out of the store; hecredited us, you know, and he'd set the mail and stuff out on the porch and we could go down and get it and bring it home. We stayed out of people's houses, and so on. So, we let everybody know about it. Then, called up Lyle and I told him, I said, "I think that we are through this. That we would be able to go out." It had been so many weeks. "Oh," he said, "you can?.t go out if there is any kind of scalin', if there's anything-" Well, Virgil's hands and feet had peeled, you know, and they had scaled and I'd watched until that had quit and everybody else was all through with it alright. And so, I told him, flI think, we're all through," I said, "we can't stay in here much longer. We can't sell cream and nothin' to live on. Things is just to where we've got to get out." "Well,^you can't get out til I get up there, and I don't know when I can get up there." And so on. So, I waited two or three days and he didn't come up, so I got on the telephone and I called him up and I told him, I said, "If you're not up here," - I think that was on a Saturday- Friday night, or Saturday morning- I said, "if you're not up here to check us before Monday morning," I said, "I'm tellin' ya, Monday we're goin' out." I said, "Ed's got to get out and get stuff to put in the crop." And, I said, "We're not stayin' in any longer." "Oh, you can't do that." I said, "Well, we're just awaitin' til Monday and we're going." So, he didn't show up Saturday. Sunday, I thought, "Well, I guess he isn't goin' to come and I'll just go out if I get arrested."
So, Sunday evening, just about dark, we went withEd after the cows, all just walkin' out on the place to get away from the house, and they had an old iron in a apricot tree back of the house where we lived, guess they'd used to call the men in out of the field or something, and we heard somebody apoundin' on that. We could look down, you could see there was a man down at the house. So, I thought, "Well, maybe that's him." So, I took the kids and went onback to the house and Ed was bringin' the cows. So, he talked to us a little bit, and he asked, you know, about the scalin', and I told him, well, that he had scaled but there wasn't anymore scales that hadn't shown up for a few days, and he says, "What about his feet and his hands?" I held out his hands. "What about his feet?" I just picked the kid up on my lap and just started jerking his shoes off, and he says, "That's alright, you don't need to do that." And so he said, "Well, you can go ahead. Fumi gate; clean up, and then you can take your sign down and go." I said, "Just how do I fumigate? What do you want me to do?" And he said, "Well, burn some formaldehyde candles in each room, " Spread our clothes out on chairs and things like that, you know, just put those formaldehyde candles, And I said, "Where do I get the candles?" And he said, "Well, you can buy 'em at the drugstore, buy 'em in Lewiston." And, I said, "How do we buy 'em," I says, "we've been in without money, and we can't go any place to git 'em. Maybe you'd better just get some and send to us." And, I said, "I'll do what you tell Well, I give him to understand that him or the county or somebody was gonna send the candles or whatever we were to do, well, he didn't^send as many- I didn't have to do near as much as he'd first told me to. But he did send 'em and I did do the fumigatin'. And years afterwards, why, we had a daughter that was born there in Agatha that had the scarlet fever and good heaven, they didn't have us to fumigate, we just had to wash the bedding and hang it out on the line and hang the clothes out in the sun and in the air. And they put her in a room; kept her in the room for a couple of weeks or so and they let Johnny- as long as we kept him out of the room- they let him go to school. And there was such a difference in the way they handledjthing, But we really went through it because we burnt out and a dry year and a crop failure.
SS: Was the crop.failure that year?
SS: What happened to the crop?
DG: It was so dry, the people couldn't get— it dried out. Just work upcloddy.
EG: One reason I didn't get some work done I was exposed to that scarlet fever, and it rained a lot. Well I worked, plowed in the rain a lot of times, but when you're exposed to scarlet fever you don't know whether to get wet or not; that might a put you under the ground. I lost qaite a little time stayin' in the house out of the rain when I'd abeen out a plowin' if I hadn't abeen exposed to scarlet fever.
DG: I don't think I had it.But, there wasn't a farmer in the whole country that year that got his farmin' done. It rained late and then it turned hot. And three days af ter it quit rainin' why the ground was baked hard. Even the tractor men give up, they didn't get all their work done. Well, that must have left you in terrible shape financially. No money at all.
DG: Now the people didn't know us too well and there wasn't any reason inthe world for theiTman Hoskins to have carried us, he didn't know whether he'd ever get a dime. He just took a chance. I guess he felt sorry for us, you know. Of course, we had a few chickens. We had eggs. And, as
DG: I say, we had our canned stuff, you know and° kraut and lard and allthat, and we had the milk and the butter. It was the flour, you know and things like that we had to buy. But he was very good and when we got to where we could sell some cream, you know, where we could sell the cream, then we began to pay him. And then you finally got to work some on the road, didn't you?
Yeah. Boy, at that time, butterfat was eleven cents a pound.But you could buy quite a bit, you know, with a cream check. 'Course, other stuff was down, too, it wasn't like it is now, but think about— What period of time was this, that this happened? What period of time? Was it during the Depression or before? This was when— let's see, Bonnie was born there in 1930, wasn't she? This was about 1928- '27, some where.
DG: Let's see, Virgil was about four years old when we went down there.
SS: Why did you go to Agatha?
Why did you pick Agatha to go to? Agatha?
Well, we just found out there was a place there to rent. A fella, Isabel,had a place to rent down there.
And we had some cows, you know, and that would be lower down in the countryand it wouldn't be as hard a winters, and the pasture. And then my uncle had some cows and we just kinda wanted to get down, you know, we had lots of snow up there.
SS: Did you own anything at Tekean? Did you own any land?
Yes, we owned a hundred acres up there. I was aimin' to go down thereand farm this— there was supposed to be sixty or sixty-five acres there and I figured to farm that and then go back on top and farm this other. I had a couple of fellows that was aimin' to help me up there; said they'd help me if I needed help. But I didn't get done down there and they didn't get done up their way, so I never got a thing done up on the other place. too
DG: But our land that we owned up there wasn't much of it clear, you know.
EG: It wasn't very much—
DG: And kind of stumps.
SS: Had you homesteaded that land or bought it? At Tekean.
EG: Bought it. Yeah.
DG: We finally let it go for bills that we owed up there.I finally let it go for a store Let it go for a store bill and the fella that finally got it died and they settled his estate and put it up for bids, and my brother bid $401 on this hundred acres and got it. And they didn't think much of that land back in there at that time, but now, since that Dworshak dam is in there, why, that land's worth $1,000 in there, an acre. Tain't worth it, but that's what they sell it— Think of all these years in between that you've had taxes and starvation. Your brother being a preacher— where did he get the idea to become a preacher? Do you know?
Oh, he always had that idea from a boy, that he wanted to preach sometime.His mother— wasn't there some other ministers in the family?
EG: Yes, we had an uncle.
DG: And then his mother was a real religious woman. And he just naturallyhehad the desire to be a minister, like somebody a farmer or a dentist or a doctor.
SS: Was he pretty rough on sin as a minister?
EG: Oh, yeah.
SS: What kind of—?
DG: He was a Lutheran. Not one of these— what caliche English Lutheran.He wasn't a—
EG: Well, yes, he was a Lutheran.
DG: The Lutherans here, why, they will smoke or they will drink some. Buthe absolutely was against all of that. There was none of that, you know. And, of course, he's been dead now for several years, but he was in his eighties, I think when he passed away. He was a minister for what?— fifty years?
EG: Oh, twenty, twenty-five years. He didn't get started in til he was a-
DG: He was apreachin' when we got married.
EG: Yes, but then he was, you see, he was forty years old when he got married.He begun preachin' when he was about thirty-eight, I guess.
SS: Did he preach around here?
EG: He preached around here a while, and then—
DG: At Arrow, and then he preached at Pullman and at Moscow and then back inKansas. Was he in Missouri for a little bit? Then he went to California.
SS: Did he ever give you trouble then about the way you lived your life? Didhe try to tell you—
EG: Oh, yes. He "to live the right way. There were four in the family that did try to be religious and there was four of us that didn't.
DG: Another brother that tried preachin' some, but he never went to college.And he never held a regular charge, you might say. He just kinda filled in. And then he's got a nephew that's a Methodist minister.
SS: This brother did go to college? The one that was a preacher?
DG: Yeah. The one that was a preacher, yeah. Then this nephew that's aminister. Well, then, he is the son of the brother that just preached a little, didn't have no regular charge.
EG: Well he got through; Carrol got through-
DG: Yeah, I'm talking about Bruce. But this nephew became a minister andthen he hafl only one boy and his boy became a minister, and then this Will, that didn't have the regular charge, his brother, and Carrol Grose close up here was his son and Carrol has three sons, and two of those sons are ministers.
And my oldest brother's grandson is a preacher, too Dallas.
Oh, yeah. So there's quite a few of 'em, down through. hard luck for fun.
We've had a lot of fun in our time. You figure that's part of livin'?A lot of hard luck?
SS: You figure that hard luck is a big part of living?Yeahhh. Well, it's like a preacher said one time; "It's a good thing we don't know what we've got ahead, if we did ,nearly all of us would com mit suicide."
I was going to ask you one thing about— a little bit of what you'rethinking about religion is.
Oh, religion! That there— I think a whole lot of religion. I used tobe a pretty wild young buck. And come to talking about religion and our country here; when I was a young fella I didn't care anything about the Bible. My folks were religious and the further I could get away from it- But Ifinally was converted and Igot to liking- and instead of stayin' away from church, Ilike to go. And Ialways do like to be with religious people. And in our country here, today, they got around and they talk about Communism. over there, oh, what a terrible place it is! Well, now under the Czar, they had the most beautiful churches in the world, in Roosia, but eighty-three percent of the people couldn't read and write and all the property in Roosia belonged to the Czar and his nineteen and eighteen family. And when they went to war in he had bought his cannons and his ammunition, all that stuff from Germany, and when they went to war, why, the ammunition he had for the cannons wouldn't fit 'em, and he was fightin' Germany. So the Roosians— Well, this Communist business overthrowed 'em. Now then, well- they're the best armed nation in the world. We go on to say it, but we just as well admit to the truth, they are better armed and they've got more resources. You see the Czar never used any Roosian resources.
DG: The boys down at the mill—
EG: They've got minerals and they've got everything over there and they'vegot their people educated now. So, we have got out here in our great nation here— they have got the Bible not allowed in the schools because it teaches religion. Well, the Bible does not teach religion! You can read that Bible and you don't know nothing^ you read through it and you won't findanything about a Lutheran or a Methodist or Catholic or Adventist or anything in there. Still, one of them fellas comes along and picks out certain passages of Scripture and shows you what they do, their place. Now the Dunkards, for instance, at the Lord's Supper, he told 'em; do this, do this in remembrance of Me. Well, every religious outfit has a little different way of doing that. But the Dunkards, they go and they have a full supper and then after supper they have a basin of water there and one of 'em gets up and takes a towel and ties around him and washes one of his feet and one of his brother's feet next to him; takes the towel off and stands up and kisses his brother; ties the towel on him and he sits down and washes one of his feet and washes one of his brother's feet; takes the towel off and kiss him and tie it onto him, and they go around thataway. Now, that's thetlT way of having the Lord's Supper. They eat the supper. But the others they have a little piece of wine and a little piece of bread and a little wine and they drink that. Now, the Christian Church they have this Sacrament every Sunday. My youngest daughter is a Christian. I've been to their church quite a lot of times. The others don't have it so often. But they teach them^things and then the baptism, baptiso, means to put water on you someway. Well some people sprinkle it on you, Catholics supposed to pour it on.
EG: Up there the old church is still there, but I don't know any of 'em anymore.
EG: See, them religions are taught: ftfcat I believe and what you believe qpd,what somebody else believes, but you take that Scripture and read it right through, like Philip, when the eunuch was areadin' the Scripture, the apostle Philip heard him. He went out and he said, "Do you under stand what you're reading?" He said, "How can I, unless some man ex plains it to me?" So Philip got in the rig with him and explained the Scripture to him and then they found some water. "Well," he says, "here's some water, what hinders me to be baptised?" Well, he went down to the water and.was baptised. Well, the people that claim you're supposed to be immersed, people that's been there, says there's not enough water, to immerse a cat.
DG: Maybe there was more water at the time.
EG: Well, I don't know what was there.
SS: Do you have any experience yourself, of being born again?
SS: Have you had that experience?
EG: Yes- (Chuckles) Yes, I know what that is. Th$ is where I bthinking about our country here, trying to say what agood country they are, and then takin' the Bible— I claim, and I know there's a lot of people like me that don't care for it. And the Scripture says to teach it; write it on your porch and write it up and teach it to your family all the time; well, then I claim that our Bible should be put in the school as a reader in the fifth grade.
SS: Yeah, you were telling me about that.
EG: That's what Ifigure,^it should be in the fifth grade as areader. Nowthen, you get our congressmen and people like to do that, will you? The Bible is mostly history, Imean it's kind of a history- Well, there's an awful lot of history in it. and believe in God and what he meant— an infidel says that he'd read it three times; he never seen anything but what you could do very well without. But then, here's the proposition about seein' what you can do without. We have laws in our country here that's wrote against murder and all this kind of thing, but the first law God wrote with Ms finger to Moses, not to murder and not to lie, not to steal and not to commit adultery and all them things: God wrote them first. Now that's like our automobiles: Henry Ford started out tinkering with stuff and he got a thing that would run on it's own power. Well, there had never been a car first, but Ford got in there and figured that out and made that motor and got a thing to run. Well now, there's all kinds of motors— cars and things out of that.
DG: Well, all kinds of religions.Well, we turned in and experimented and we made the atomic bomb, and after World War I, they had a conference and they said- agreed unanymously that there would be no military secrets between nations. And England and the United States went one to the other and said we can't share the secrets of the atomic bomb with Roosia, the other'n said we cain't. Now ^who built the Iron Curtain? Roosia's got the atomic bomb, we had it first They knowed that there was anatomic bomb and they got scientists and they got together and they built it. China's built it. India's got it. And they've got that atomic bomb all over now, but the first one that was built was very hard to fix. Same way as an infidel come in and say we could do without anything that's in the Bible. But the Jaw that we all have to go by, or supposed to go by, of not murdering and not stealing and lying and the Ten Commandments- God wrote them first. Well, every nation in the world has got them laws in their lawbooks. They're fine, you don't have to go to the Bible to find 'em anymore, but the first onewho wrote the first ones? And who built the first this and who built the first that. I know the first phonograph I ever seen; Iwas a little kid in Virginia and there was a fella come along atravelin' through the coun try and stoppin' at schoolhouses and he had a bunch of records on a Edi son phonograph and the horn was supported by a stand that stood out in front of it. It was a heavy horn, had to be supported en that, Iremember that, and Iwas small enough that my dad- wejjhad amile to go, and my dad packed me part of the way home. So you know Iwas a pretty small lad when I seen the first phonograph. But, there's lots of different things made now since Edison started that. And the electric lightshow long did he work to do that? But Edison made the first one. Now lots of people can make them things.
The thing I wanted to ask you about- about this religion is that- I wascurious about how it was important to you, when you were an adult, but a long time ago. Did you find that the idea of— was the idea of being born again something that was important to you? In those years? The revivals and all that. Was that important to a person.
As we grew up, we liked to go to the revivals and most of us have beento the altar and like that, but as a child we was always in church, you know, every Sunday.
EG: We was raised in church.
DG: We were raised, you know, with the background to go to church and so onup until you got up in your teens to feel responsible for your own reli gious welfare. And, of course, we make a lot of mistakes and don't live up to it like we should, but we believe it and we have been to the altar. I don't know if we've had a feftling as some of 'em call it, the Holy Spirit or sanctification or. like that, why-
EG: Some people have the ideas of calling it one thing and another. The Lutherans call their- what some people call sanctification- they call it growing in Grace. Gittin'—
DG: Trying to get better.
EG: The longer they live atryin' to- not to get any worse, at least. Getbetter all the time. Live closer to God^. Well, some of 'em they talk about their sanctification and well, after they git it, I can't see any difference in 'em after they get what they call sanctification than they did before. But, now-
DG: They may feel different themselves, you know.
EG: Yeah, 'fhe inward feelin' I don't know. I can^ tell my inward feeling; I can't tell yours.
DG: And then I know some people- I do things that they wouldn't do. They dothings that I wouldn't do. And I've seen some of 'em, that I know busin ess like and everything; I've seen 'em go up for sanctification, and you feel real good about it, you know, think it's going to be wonderful, but in their daily lives and their business dealings, why, it doesn't coincide with my idea of what-
SS: Do you feel like it's the way it makes you act, more than the way itmakes you feel? Do you know what I mean? Is it— Do you look at reli gion as something that's in the way you, that it makes you live your life and the way you treat other people? And it affects the way you deal with people?
DG: Well, I think it-
EG: It should have a lot of the way you deal with people. But thinking aboutthat, it takes me back to the Adventists that lived at Arrow long years ago. And there was a fellow come down the road with a team and got stuck in about twenty rods of this Adventist's house on Friday evening after sundown, after dark. And they went to the Advent to get his team to pull him out, it wouldn't a been- it wasn't twenty rods to the top of the hill. But, no, it was his Sabbath and he wouldn't take his team out. He wouldn't go and help that man, never went out to help him. But my brother was a teachin' school at that time and he'd went* to-jJurdin was the clerk of the board and he went there to get his warrant for his month's teaching, and it happened to be that night. And then there was a grown man there that was going with the Jurdin girl and Jurdin and my brother and the man that had the wagon; the four of 'em went and took the load off of the wagon and packed it up to the top of the hill so the team could pull the wagon up and then loaded again, and he went on about a quarter of a mile further, the only place in the country that had a barn next to the road except the Adventist, and he put up there for the night with that fella. So, that was the way the— Well, that fella says, "I would take my team out to help a man out on my Sabbath." And Jesus got took apart because he healed a man on the Sabbath day. And he asked -em if any of 'em had an ox in the ditch if they wouldn't. it out.
DG: They picked the corn on the Sabbath, too, didn't they?
EG: Yes. They talk about corn, and I don't know what kind of stuff it was,if they had corn, some kind of a something. They have something they call Jerusalem corn, that's a kind of a headlike cane, and then they had wheat. But corn, what we know as corn was originated in America.
DG: We believe it's alright to do good on the Sabbath, but just not to s*taround all week and leave everything and then try to get it all done on Sunday. But if anybody is in need, you know, why, we wouldn't hesitate to stop and—
EG: Well, there was an old fella used to live over here that was an Adventist,used to live up in the same country, and he used to talk about going out to the churches in Leland; they used to have two Methodist churches there; but he talked about going down to church there, well, you'd come out just before twelve, you know, and he'd say— seemed like that Advent would have it worked out every day to pass the church just as they come out, he'd have a load of wood; going home with a load of wood. He hadn't worked on Saturday, but then, on Sunday he'd be passin' this church—
DG: I think the Adventists are very sincere, very good people, and they do alot of good, but-
EG: In a way they do a lot of good, but I've heerd a lot of people say,"Idon't understand the Bible." Now this one thing here- a preacher thatand old Methodist preacher that had been in Alaska as a missionary, he said the Catholics come up there into Alaska and the Methodists and then the Adventists come up there, and he said them people didn't know what to do. The Catholics was a different i; the Methodists was different to the Adventists
SS: The denominations get in each other's way?
SS: All these different denomination, they get in each other's way?
EG: They do. They do get in each other's way more with men that are not religious, because the men that's not religious, you see, this one and that one and the other and they all tell you what to do. Now, I got a cousin, or did have a cousin, that was a Seven Day Adventist . His father was a strong Lutheran and a good man, and this fella he left Vir ginia between two nights- between two days- and he come into Mexico and there he got turned to be an Adventist. And they had him arrested for disturbing worship- and I've got his picture here, it was sent to his that'd be mother- to my mother,Ahis aunt, you know- his picture lookin' through the iron bars, you know, he's in jail, and it said, "Blessed are ye when you're persecuted for my namesake." Well, my oldest brother went East with Uncle Jim Castle, that was this fella's dad had come out here, anc1 then he went back around and visited the boy, and my brother went with him as he went East, my brother went back and got married. So my dad told him after this come out, he said, "Now, Levi, I want to ask you something about Kelly Castle's place there; hasn't he got a blacksmith shop? And isn't there a church on the other corner on the other side of the street right from his blacksmith shop?" And he said, "I believe there is." And said, "That's it." Says, "I know Old Jim Castle, I used to go by his place and he'd spit on the anvil and put a hot iron on it and hit it to make a racket to scare my horse. Bailey Castle was aworkin' in his blacksmith shop right across the street from that church. While they were having worship on Sunday he was disturbin' that worship by workin' in his shop." And there he had it up there, his picture looking through the bars; "Blessed are these who are persecuted for my namesake."
SS: Where was he thrown in jail?
SS: Whereabouts was he thrown in jail?
EG: This was somewhere in New Mixico. (Chuckles)
SS: New Mexico.Then he would be an Adventist. He would be doing his work on Sunday. I was going to ask you something about Adams, this guy in Juliaetta. Did you ever hear about his deal with that wheat? Oh, Adams wheat! Yes, sir. I know Adam's wheat!
SS: What did you hear about that? What did you know about that? About thatwheat of his; what did you know about it? Well, he said that he got that, found it in a wild goose's craw in Ala ska. But there was a fella, Lee Hall, lived down in the- had a homestead up the Little Potlatch Canyon, and he was a great hunter, and he said he went up on the Genesee Ridge, and it looked like the wheat had froze out or something and he went up there and it looked like it had been drilled crossways and this here peculiar wheat was in that field. And the heads of that wheat was like this- kinda double, and a^fcki Gne head seemed to be a little shorter than the other, but it was a big head, and I don't know that it had- well, it's like some wheat you know, soem of 'em the heads are awful tight and shorter and others are looser and look like bigger heads, and yet they don't have any more grain in 'em than the other, Well, that was kinda the way with this. It was a looser head of wheat than the other and had abig head there. But this Hall^he brought that home and planted that in his garden. Well that'll grow, you know; one grain of wheat'11 make a great big bunch, that fall he brought a hand ful of it up and put some in the bank, that peculiar wheat, and he had some money in his hand, and he'd got kinda mad at Old Adams and he thought he'd just tell him a good yarn, you know. He met him on the street, said, "Mr. Adams would you like to have a few heads of the Klondike wheat?" That was great gold country up to Alaska country then. "A few heads of the Klondike wheat?" He said, "You plant it in your garden and it'll produce a hundred and sixty times what you plant." Well, any wheat'11 do that. You plant it and when it grows good, why it'll make a whole handful of heads there. I believe it would beat that; most any wheat agoin' on good ground, just one grain put in place and keep the weeds out from around it. But Adams he took it and he done that and he started it, kept multiplying from that little bunch that Hall give him til he got enough to get acreages of it, and then he put up this story of Alaska wheat, found in a goose's craw and got to sellin' it for twenty dollars a bushel for seed. Well, he shipped some to Kansas, back there from here. And then the government got to thinkin' about such an outlandish price as that for wheat. Ordinary wheat then wasn't, oh, I don't know, whether they ever got eighty cents a bushel. But consider the general run of wheat at eighty cents a bushel and then this stuff here at twenty dollars a bushel; the government went to investigatin' to see what it was. And when they actually found out where it come from, it was the old Egyptian wheat. The oldest wheat in the world.
SS: That Vlhat Hall had gotten up off the Ridge, was the old Egyptian wheat?
EG: That was what it was. He was the one that got the original kernels ofstuff, but this Adams said he got it out of a goose's craw.
SS: Did you know Hall?
SS: Did he tell you that story?
EG: Yeah, he's the one that told me that. Yes.
SS: Why was he mad at Adams? Was there any special reason?
EG: Well, he was aworkin' on the mill, puttin' a roof on it; some kind of acombination roof and it had some wire in it like, and he give Adams a piece of it and he wanted to know how I cut it. "Well," he said, "you cut it with your knife if you want to." And Adams he took it and that wire in there and he dulled his knife and it made him kind of mad.
SS: This made Hall mad?
EG: This made Adams mad, because Hall give him this stuff and he dulled hisknife tryin' to cut it. And that^of miffed Hall, too, so he just thought he could— he was a pretty good guy, you know to make up a pretty good yarn, Hall was, and so he told him this. And then he changed it from Klondike to Alaska and then he made himself a lot of money.
SS: Adams really believe that this was— the Hall story? That this was Alaska wheat?
EG: No, he changed the story around. I don't believe Hall told him this. Maybe Hall did tell him it come out of a goose's craw, but Hall didn't tell him it was Alaska, he told him it was Klondike.
SS: Didn't Adams say he found it up in Alaska himself?
SS: Did they stop him from selling it? Or what happened?
EG: Yes. After they found out it was the old Egyptian wheat, then they stopped him from sellin' it, and stopped him from shippin' it out of the coun try. Well, he had a son-in-law that was a banker up here.
SS: E. W. Porter. Yeah. And the two of 'em, they shipped a carload of hay from hereto Kansas. And they thought that was funny shippin' hay from here to Kan sas, so they inspected the car and found it with this rtieat inside of the hay. And that was smugglin'. So, I don't know what the fine for smugglin' is. But I never heard of 'em ashippin' any more. (Chuckles) I believe he did.^ Claimed he got it himself out of a goose.
Did E. W. Porter get in trouble over that, do you think?
I don't know. I don't know what happened, that's all I heerd about; theycaught 'em asmugglin' that wheat out of here in that hay. And I don't know what fine they got or anything about it. I don't know any more about that.
Did you run across any- during the First World War: I know there was alot of anti Germar, feeling. People around here who kind of disliked the German people for a while because of the war. I know like they weren't supposed to speak the German language and that kind of thing. Did you ever hear about that? During that time?
EG: None of 'em around here.
One I was going to ask you about coming from Virginia, was that Iknow that some of the bitterness about the Civil War and all, with the Grand Old Army and all that stuff; I was wondering if anybody in your families ever had the idea that some of the people around here still held some kind of grudge against Southerners, or didn't like Southerners, be cause they were from the South?
Well, I don't know whether they do or not.
SS: I mean back in the early days. 1910?
EG: Back in the early days, yes, they did. Some of 'em had something tosay about the Southerners. One time there was a young feller wanted to run for road boss, and he come up to Albright's down here, and left a note for 'em, they wasn't at home. Told 'em to come down and vote for him and help beat the Southerners. And my cousin, Ben Crabtree, he went up there to get 'em to vote for him and found the note and put his name on it, too and he come back and told 'em that this here fellow went up there to try to get to be road boss to get somebody to come to help beat the Southerners. So that made everybody that was from the South mad and they all— two or three of 'em was gonna run for road boss and they all drawed off for Crabtree, except one, Wilson didn't; but they beat this other fellow way outta sight, he had no show at all of being a road boss. And he mighta got it if he'd. put that Southernern talk in there, because the others mighta all went ahead and run. Yeah, there was lots a people that had differences, didn't like Southern people, and Southern people didn't like Northerners. It was a long time to get it ironed out. Like Leland having;1 two Methodist Churches in it. You know what Leland is now, don't you? It had a steam run flour mill. It had a school and a post office.
DG: Real good store.
EG: Two good general stores and a hardware.
SS: You had two churches, 'cause one was Northern Methodist and one was Southern Methodist?
EG: Yeah. One set on this block here lookin' at the street thisaway, and theother one set on this block here looking thisaway, there. And the people claim.' ed— some fellas claimed they went by one night and they was singin' in one, "Will There be Any Stars in My Crown?" And the other'n was singing, "No, Not One." (Chuckles) It wasn't only the Methodists, near ly all the people- all the churches was split for a while over that. And
(a break in here __ )
somebody's bright idea of pickin' up that old Scripture that Noah-/whichis right and which is left, so I went off in the corner and sit down. I wanted to do what was right, you know, and a fella got just so drunk he wouldn't care. He wouldn't care whether he went right or left- that was alright, he'd just be havin' a lot of fun anyway.
SS: This was a quadrille dance?
EG: Calla quadrille, allemande left, and you turn to the right, why, thatwould tangle up the whole business, but if you was drunk enough to- really drunk, why, you wouldn't care.
DG: What made bad, he never- he wasn't used to drinking or smokin' either,and they'd slipped out and found a bottle- they was drinkin' a bunch of 'em, some guy had it hid out in a barn. And then they smoked cigarettes, when they wasn't used to smokin', to kill it on the breath and come in around the girls and it made him pretty dizzy.
EG: Yep. The other fellas, they all tell it too that did smoke. I found outafterwards that that's the cheapest drunk you can have, is to smoke on drink. Smokin' and drinkin' together will set your head a whirling.
DG: Your's, 'cause you're not used to it.
EG: Well, it will other people.
SS: I was going to ask you another thing. Why do you like to write poetry?
SS: Why do you like to write poetry? I don't know many people that do writepoetry.
DG: He never considered it poetry, I don't think. He was quite a hand tomake upK
EG: Oh, I don't know. Just got a few ideas in my head, and just got awritin'thataway.
DG: Just every once in a while.
EG: Now, I don't know, - a fella that married my niece he was quite a poet.And he wrote quite a lot of pretty good poems. And he says that before you got to write a poem- he was a well educated man- he says you've got to have an inspiration to write before you can do that. Well, there is times I think of something that way that will make a rhyme and keep a rhyming out a little ways and at other times, why, I couldn't write three words that would rhyme "To save your life. Just some foolish ideas.
DG: Lots of times he'll try to make a joke outta things, like worry, I'm always a big worrywart- well, I guess he worried, but he didn't say very much about it, he just could make himself more or less accept.
EG: Who was that?
EG: Oh. yeah.
Just accept it and go on, you know. And he's quite a hand to figure thatthe other fellow had rights the same as he did. And I know that one time we was all needing work so bad and there was several guys after the job and there was a little road work come up and I insisted that he try to get on, and he said, "There's a lot after it." And he said, "You've got two brothers that's after it," and he said, "if they can get on, they've got your mother to take care of." Mama was an invalid, or practically so, and the brothers, you know, they growed up, why, they had to do the sup porting. And so, he said, "Everybody can't get on, we can't all be on there," and he said, "if they don't get on your mother's going to suffer." He said, "If there's room for all, fine, but I'm not agoing to-"
EG: Where was that?
DG: Oh, down there at Arrow one time, you know, you said, that you wasn'tgoing to push anybody out, you know. This railroad or just road work? This was road. Just road work. Before he went onto the railroad. Sounds like just road work was one of the only jobs that a person could get. Was that WPA? WPA or PWA, whatever they called it. They had that a while, NRA, and— And then he'd get a few days. They give you ten- they give one fella ten days and then another one ten.
DG: So everybody could have a little bit.
EG: That was after Roosevelt come in and started that- started up agivin'people a little work, you know, road work or— . Well, then it wasn't all road work. He went to makin' these trails through the country, too. And people got on that. Make roads or trails all over the country.
SS: Do you think that that was a real good thing to happen? Roosevelt toget in and start trying change?
EG: Yes, he done a lot of good things.
EG: He opened up business. Now Hoover, they always make fun of him, but whatHoover done, he appropriated a lot of money and give it to the wealthy men to hire— they was supposed to go and hire the poor people and put them to work. But instead of that- of them adoin' that, they went and repaired their machinery, their factories, made them better and never hired any outside work, so that left the people worse off than ever and everybody hated Hoover.
EG: and when he got in there and made an appropriation^ money, heput it out so that he knowed the poor man was goin' a get it! He put it out there so now— there was a few places that they goofed up. on that. Now up here at Lenor$, they was a man up there, that .had something to do with handling that money, but he got his son— he was a merchant, his son was- he wasn't needy because his father had stuff, but he got his son on as timekeeper. And timekeeper worked straight time, you know, all through, he didn't work ten days and out Timekeeper works all through, so he got his son in as timekeeper on the job. Well, I got in, I think I got in twice. I gotcheats at ten days while the job was a goin' on. But this son of his he got in there and then he was assistant foreman, and he didn't know a thing about the job. I was workin' there one day a puttin' some road in, and I'd worked on the road before, and I knowed what I wanted and a slope von a fill for a cut. A one to three was ^ bank here; one foot slope to three feet up to the bank and the other was one to one, that was the road that come out to the road from the ditch. I knowed how to make them, but he come along and started to tell me one day about it. "Well," he said, "perhaps you know more about it than I do." Well I did. And that was all he said. A one to three and one to one, and said, "Most likely you know more about it than I do." And he went on. But then that was it. He was the boss and he didn't know what a one to one and a one to three was. Well, they had an old railroad man that worked on that*-and he come down and started to make some of that, and he didn't understand what a one to one and a one to three was. (Chuckles) And then the bosSjhe didn't understand reading stakes and things like that, and he got my brother-in-law, George Wilson, to come up there and work on the job. He kept him on there quite a while because he had worked on the road work and he understood all stakes and all slopes and all stuff like that. Well, the man that he worked for for years as a road contractor^ he^senfc George out to finish any job of work they had. But he done most of his work in Washington. So when they put this road in across the river over there, why, they had some work over there to be done, that George could do, he knowed how, young fella, he went over there and told 'em, and I don't know what the fella- what the boss told him- but it just so took George back so that he never did try to get in again. He brought in men from somewhere else that done the work. They was supposed to hire local men, but they brought in some of their own men from somewhere else to do the work that George Wilson coulda done, if that boss woulda listened to him, but he was just a kid, you might say, but he started in young on the road work and he knowed. He knowed how to tractors and run graders and all kinds of stuff.
SS: But, he wouldn't go back?
EG: He never went back to again. Then he got in on the railroad.
SS: One thing I was going to ask you about. Did you live in a section houseon the railroad?
EG: Yeah. I lived there.
SS: What was that like? What kind of accommodations were they; the sectionhouses?
DG: What was a sectionhouse like?
SS: To live in? Yes.
EG: Well, it was just about such a— not quite as good a house as this onehere.
DG: It was a common,ordinary house and hadn't been anyone in it much for quitea little while. Pretty well rundown when we moved there. But the com pany did put a roof on and put in some screen porches. It was only a four roomed house, and they built a little bedroom onto the porch after we were there. And there was a well just outside - just back of the house.
EG: It was as good as we'd ever been used to. (Chuckles)they called it
DG: And it was sealed with just lumber, beaded sealing,Ayou know, the wallsand* was all lumber.
EG: 'Cause we lived in some pretty sloppy places in our time!
DG: It was handy to the work. Just had to walk across two tracks and he wason the motorcar. And so it was handy.
0:00 - Where Susan Groseclose lived; dealing with homeless men; actives that Susan Groseclose did and dealings with her other family
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: Aunt Susan Groseclose. Her garden was by the railroad tracks. Finding a dead hobo. A hobo with lice who didn't want to leave their home, when only Ed and his mother were there; he acted as though he was a family friend. Aunt Susan was always busy; after she broke her hip, she crocheted all the time. She sat with Dixie's mother at night after working all day. She jumped over a horse by mistake. Susan's daughter made round button holes on her gown. Everyone called her "Aunt Susan."
15:00 - Boys not knowing how to do any work in the home; Mr. Groseclose learning how to took; divisions of labor between men and women; Dixie's enjoyment of working outside
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: The boys in Ed's and Aunt Susan's families grew up without learning how to do any work in the home. He found himself ill-prepared to batch when he grew up: having to look after himself and the cattle when his sister got a toothache. His sister-in-law cooked her best to show him. The traditional division of labor between men and women. Dixie's great enjoyment of outside work and dislike of housework; her help with farming. She had trouble using a plow: "cat-and-covering".
27:00 - Having to do housework and not liking it; missing school to help out at home; family illness
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: The work she had to do for the family as she was growing. Her preference for non-domestic work. She missed a great deal of school because of work at home; but she enjoyed school and always passed. She felt she was needed at home. Accepting what you have in life. Mother's illnesses.
Direct segment link:
35:00 - Having tonsillitis and other health problems; growing up with adversity and making do with what they had
Direct segment link:
41:00 - No traveling to cities during the Depression; having produce was an advantage; cheap cost of cloth in the South
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
51:00 - Getting lice and having their horse and saddle stolen; Discussion of whites' relationship with Native Americans
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
61:00 - Survey dispute between his sister and Indians. Kimberling's land boundaries were set by himself, not a survey.
Direct segment link:
67:00 - Native American friends teaching relatives English; Differences between Native Americans living on the land and whites
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: His Indian friend went to school and didn't like to speak Nez Perce, but taught his relatives English. A burial site for eight Nez Perces south of the river. 4n Indian family that was prone to tuberculosis because of their damp homesite. Indians could divide up land but whites couldn't. Indians might lie but wouldn't steal.
74:00 - Dixie's poor treatment from Dr. Foster in Lewiston; Dr. Foster supposedly curing breast cancer
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: She got poor treatments in Lewiston from Dr. Foster, who was drinking heavily. A bootlegger who sold cold tea for liquor. Foster cured cancerous breast lumps by applying a burner, which was painful. A niece who died from breast cancer by dallying after it was discovered, in hope of getting Foster's cure.
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: Story that Foster's house was haunted by a figure of a nurse. Southern superstitions: throwing a sickle in milk that wouldn't churn; cure for breaking a spider web; killing an ox in an effort to cure it. Jim Deevers' reputation for being a wizard led to fun at others' expense, (continued)
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
101:00 - Dixie and Ed's courtship; what they did for fun; Dixie being prepared for married; and stepfather disapproval of Ed
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: Their courtship: when it started he was 20, she 13. His injury in an accident hauling poles led to his getting to know her better. As a little kid she once told Ed not to get married. Stepfather liked to talk about the wild times he had had, but disliked Dixie's going out. House parties: kissing games. She was prepared for marriage from work at home. Stepfather's disapproval of her beaus, including Ed. (continued)
120:00 - Going to a dance and causing opposition for father; Dixie had no trouble getting dates; Going to Literaries
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: Taking Dixie to a dance raises opposition from father, although she got home by midnight with a chaperone. Stepfather had no legal right to stop her from marrying. Young men who were rounders became suspicious of their daughters. She had no trouble getting dates; some boys were too old to go out with. Going to literary with an overloaded buggy. Debate topics and other literary activities; mock trials, and the oath to lie.
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
150:00 - Loss of belongings from fire except for saved produce in cellar; illnesses contracted from donated clothing; irresponsible doctor and regulations for ending quarantine
Direct segment link:
Segment Synopsis: Loss of belongings in the fire; stored produce was saved in the cellar. Donations from neighbors - contracting the seven year itch from clothes they had been given. The children contracted scarlet fever. The doctor failed to come until they were on their way to Agatha, and then tried to stop them from moving. She protested so strongly that he let them go on. They had to be quarantined at Agatha; the store gave them credit but they couldn't sell their cream. Unreasonable regulations for ending quarantine; doctor's irresponsible conduct.
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
189:00 - Adventists didn't work Saturdays but did on Sundays; Religious denominations are confusing to non-believers
Direct segment link:
196:00 - Where Adams got his wheat and what he sold it for; Adams stopped shipping because his wheat was Egyptian; smuggling wheat to Kansas
Direct segment link:
203:00 - Man running for road boss which united Virginians; differences between North and South causes Methodist church split
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link:
Direct segment link: